Episode 021: Why We Love Our Dogs So Deeply

Welcome to season 2 of unruly By Nature! In this first episode of our new season, we explore the connection that bonds us so deeply with our dogs.

Some relationships change the course of our lives. Few are as profound as the bond we share with our dogs.

In this episode, we welcome our very first guests to the show! Actor, writer, podcast host, and devoted dog mum Jennifer Apple joins us with her handsome and unforgettable companion, Walter. 

What begins as a conversation about one remarkable little dog soon becomes an exploration of presence, intuition, adventure, grief, unconditional love, and the extraordinary ways animals help us discover who we truly are.

Together, we explore why the human-dog bond feels so different from every other relationship, how our animals become mirrors for our own lives, and why curiosity, not certainty, opens the door to deeper, heart-centered connection.

Whether you've loved a dog, lost a dog, or simply wondered why animals touch our hearts so profoundly, this conversation is an invitation to slow down, listen more deeply, and rediscover yourself through the relationships that matter most.

Join Rachel, Sue, Kim, Jennifer, and Walter for an honest, humorous, and heartfelt conversation about the life-changing wisdom our dogs quietly share every day.

Thanks for wandering the wild edges with us on Unruly By Nature.

 If you loved this conversation, share it with someone who’s ready to explore the deeper side of life with dogs.

Rachel Knott - Animal Communicator

Website: rachelknott.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/myanimalmatters

Kim Howatt - Author and Imaginal Adventurer

Website: kimberlyhowatt.com

Substack: https://kimberlyhowatt.substack.com/

Sue Mimm - Life Explorer

Substack: https://suemimm.substack.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/pawsreflectconnect

Until next time — stay curious, stay connected, stay unruly.

xoxo 

Kim, Sue, and Rachel

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:39

Hello. Welcome back to Unruly by Nature. This is our season two because we decided to take a bit of a break over the summer. And so this is episode 21, season two. And today is a really cool day because it's not just me, Kim, and Sue. It's me, Kim, Sue, and Jennifer and Walter. So these guys are our first ever guests, and I'm personally completely buzzing to have two new energies in the space. As per usual, there is no script, there is no editing. We are just gonna hang out together, get to know Jennifer and Walter and see what this space, what we all create. So I'm gonna begin. We always begin with a question, Jennifer, and we're gonna keep it super simple. We just want to know collectively like who is Walter? How does he end up with you?

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Oh my goodness. This is truly when I say this is a privilege to be on this podcast to talk about my dog Walter. It is like actually the I could do this all day, every day. So to get to do this with you all, and then whoever is listening is just an absolute dream. Um Walter is not too, I mean, there are so many gorgeous, incredibly perfect other animals on the planet, but Walter m happens to be the best of them. I'm sorry, but not um and I uh he was a foster fail, which is like so not the I hate that phrasing because nothing about him, I mean, look at this little face.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Hello.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Nothing about him is a failure whatsoever, like at all. Um, I had been fostering for, I don't know, I think I had like six or seven dogs before I went on um, I'm an actor. So before I went on a Broadway tour. And I told myself that once I got off this tour, that would be when I would finally adopt a dog. And the tour was shut down by COVID. And uh at the time I was with my then ex in LA and they were still working, and I was, you know, fun employed because the entire industry was shut down. And I was like, well, I'm bored. I'm gonna foster while we're here. And thus began a new adventure into fostering. And at that point, uh the pandemic was really pandemicing, and the tour was like, we're not coming back for any time. And I was like, well, at this point, now I should foster to adopt. And Mr. Man, honestly, like should not have happened. I was on a list, a short list for um a puppy from a rescue, and I went on their website to see an update on the little puppy's progress. And Mr. then Ray, Ray's little headshot was on their site and he was a model. And I was like, Who is this dog model and what is this dog's status? And I reached out and they're like, This dog will be adopted in four seconds. If you want him, you better claim him. And it was a foster to adopt kind of situation. So I went to this rescues um brick and mortar. He was the only smallish, he's deceptively small. You he looks so he's you know, I call it like Napoleon energy. He definitely but he was this small little dog running running around a bunch of other big dogs. And I remember calling my ex at the time and saying, He's so pretty. Like I usually like a dog that looks like it's been put through a washing machine. And I was like, You you is too pretty, so cute. Like, look at him. And my ex was like, just take him home and we'll see. And the second he got home, he just like laid on his back and opened his legs. And I was like, You are he and you are ready, and you are mine, I think. And the rest is history, and now he's truly the literal love of my life. I would do absolutely anything for him, which is way too unhinged and unwell. And um, he it keeps me present and he is quirky and weird and adventurous and mostly quiet, except for when wheels come around him in any capacity. And he's just the softest little stuffed animal that's real that I get to snuggle at night. I mean, like what else do you want to know? I can talk, I mean, truly, like we're here. Whatever you want to know.

SPEAKER_05 4:35

And how did you switch from Ray to Walter? Did it give you that name?

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Or just No, I had a I had a little short list of like old man and women names and uh Walter was one of them. And I saw him and I was like, yeah, that's that's right. There was like Herbert and Howard and you know, like, you know, Carl, just like things that I liked the idea of just like a bunch of men sitting around with like cigars and and like talking about the newspaper, but like in my brain, it was like 1942, you know, like a kind of that vibe. I had some other ones for wit- I thought the puppy was supposed to be a girl and I was gonna name her Ethel. Like, you know, like I think you can probably get maybe my brain a little bit. Just I like the idea of just like a bunch of old people running around and I get to yell that in a dog park. Oh, you know, Ethel, come. Like that's fun, you know. The first time I took him to the vet, again, it was during the pandemic, and I flew back home from LA to New York, and everything was masked, and everything was you couldn't go into the actual vet. And so they came out to the car to uh take him. And I was in my mother's, at the time, suburban. And again, he's like, you know, 11 pounds, but I had him in the back seat. And um, I guess they heard the name Walter, and the vet technician came out to open the door to get Walter and went to the trunk door, assuming that he was a big dog, and was like, Where is Walter? And I was like, Not there, like open the side door, and like she I remember explicitly because she was wearing a mask. It was just her eyes. She opened the door and her eyes were like, What? Like this small thing is named Walter? And I was like, Yes, that's exactly the point. Right, because you're perfect. Yeah. So that's that's it.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

His ears are amazing. Every time you see his name, they just they they just go like they just go, What? I I'm here for you. It's really funny. When you just said when you sent a picture of him, yeah. Like I got like a couple of things came and he just said life sparkles for him. And it's life with you sparkles with him. Like it just, I like I just see glitter and then I saw like Fred Astaire came into my head. And you know how like Fred Astaire always got like I'm thinking holiday in. Yeah, Fred Astaire always got the girl over being prosbeed. Like that was it.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

And I could just say he's he's pretty gender fluid um in terms of other, you know, friends that he meets on the street. But for me, it's it's definitely a duo. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah. It was just awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 7:13

So you've just got engaged. I did. Which is public knowledge. I haven't just no, you have not out of it. He knows, right? He knows.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Yeah, he knows. Well, actually, the funny thing is too, again, you know, I uh my partner from the get, it was very clear like this is the love of my life, and you can compete for another position. I can love, you know, many beings, but just not the way that I will love this animal. Correct. I know, thank you. Um, and uh he actually proposed to Walter in February, like a while ago. He got one of those little plush um rings. I guess they have like a there, if if you go online, there's just like a big plush ring box, and you open the ring box and it's a big plush ring. And he bought this. And we were down visiting my father in Florida, and we like we're having, I don't know, like a smoothie or an assay bowl or something, as one does in Florida on the beach boardwalk. And he he like opens his bag and he's like, Can I, uh Walter, come here? And he like has Walter sit and he like goes and pulls out this plush ring box and opens this, you know, ring out and tries to propose to Walter. And it's this funny four-minute video I have where Walter could not have cared less, could not have like truly could not have cared less. He tried to then bribe him with some like almond butter from the ase bowl, and he was like, All right, I'll lick that and then I'm off. And at the end of it, when he tried to like finish the proposal, Walter peed. I was like, that you cannot make that up. And for me, that was, you know, exactly the kind of way that it should have gone down, where he was like, You could do it. I will say essentially, yes, but like it's not like I'll be there, you know, not like you need my approval. Like just like a no performance. No, it was like I'm here and I'll urinate right next to this. You know, like just the disregard was so right. It was so right. And even in that, he asked to be before that even began. My partner asked if he could like be his father. And I said, no. Like, like I was like, you can't. He's like, what do you mean I can't? I've like worked really hard to like earn his and your trust. I was like, yeah, but I'm his mother. Like you would be his stepdad. You can be a stepfather that you essentially are. You walk him sometimes, you don't pay any bills, and I don't need you to. Like, I am so I am a single mother who has raised this beautiful being on this planet. I don't need your help. And then he still proposed. You know what I mean? So it's just like, it's really if people really knew what goes on. Well, I don't know how I'm engaged.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

I really don't, but Walter's like, she'll make up the guest room for you.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

And lo and behold, you lo and behold, you put the foot wrong.

unknown 9:54

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:55

But I love that you made it clear from the outset. Because like how many people have that relationship with their dogs? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's so common where the the the dog not even is in between the person, it's like there is no in between. Yeah. You're just so aligned with that one human being. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

And then it gets confusing, you know, and I don't want to be confusing. I want it to be very clear that like these are the roles. And please enter into the assigned role in the best way you want to. And is he falling asleep? Oh my God.

unknown 10:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Great. And then that's it. Like I have, I have raised him to be the entire beautiful gentleman that he is. And I clearly don't need your help. So um, I'd love your partnership in my and your supporting of me being the unhinged mother that I am.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

So I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a purple for you, Jennifer. And I'm gonna say, let's have the same conversation five years down the line and let's see what's changed.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah. Hopefully he's walking me. You know, he's the one who's guiding me around and he's making me food and paying my bills. You know, he's an influencer and we don't have to work. And he does, you know, that would be great.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I I I think the one trait that I see in you, Jennifer, is the is the clarity alongside the collect the connection, but so many people aren't clear with how they feel about their animals. And I think it can create this foggy space. So I think like I just I really like admire that trait in you, that clarity that you have to just say, this is how it is, this is my life. This works for me, and like be the best you you can around it. I think that's just that goes way beyond animals and dogs.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

And I do think though, like, you know, putting it back in the animal land of things, I grew up with dogs my whole life. I'm a very, very huge dog human, clearly. But, you know, I think there is something about just like, you know, I don't claim to, you probably all know so much more than I do about dogs, but there is something about the like pack mindset of it all and the leadership part of things that I really do feel, even for myself, like the clarity around my relationship with him not only allows him to be a better dog, I think, because he's able to just like be fully himself and also know when and how he needs to do things, but also for myself, like if I know that there is a structure, then I'm able to show up better for me in the way that I need to for my own life, um, as opposed to like, oh God, I forgot to feed my dog, or oh, I forgot to schedule a dog walker, or oh no, I'm running low on food. It's like, no, my responsibility is to keep this being alive and also hopefully thriving. And in doing so, it's allowing me to do the same. Um, and so I'm grateful that you say that. Thank you. And I also, in some ways, like, don't know the other way. Like, I don't, you know, if I wasn't so clear, like everything gets messy and blurry, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Well, and you have quite a busy life too, right? I mean, so how how do you how do you traverse that?

SPEAKER_04 12:54

Like the being gone a little with put him down because he wants to go lie down in this heat of the things. Hold please. Goodbye. Goodbye. It's a balance for sure. Um, and now I think at this point in my career, you know, I I wear many hats in the artistic space, primarily actor, um, but also acting coach. Um, I'm a podcast host also and a writer. So there's a lot of things, but they kind of ebb and flow depending on where things are in seasons. Um, but at this point in my career, he's a non-negotiable. If we're talking about how that factors in, you know, every single contract that I have, it's brought up that he will be there. Um, you know, it's like it's true, I will turn down work if they're like not dog receptive. Cause in it's actually less about like, you know, the rules are more about like dog people. I think there's something about knowing if somebody says no to a dog, then they're not my kind of person to begin with. Like, you know, you don't need there's a gradient of love for dogs, but if you're kind of like no straight up, like I don't, we're not operating from the same way of like love and collaboration. Um, and so I think, you know, I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing, but I think at this point in my career, that's a choice that I'm making for sure. Um and, you know, more often than not, I think certainly post the pandemic, there has been a bit of a shift around having dogs in spaces. I think people are hopefully and beginning to understand the benefit of it. You know, there really is the emotional support of it, the energy, the vibrancy, the presence. And he's really, really good. He's been brought in so many of these spaces that, you know, if they're plunking out music or if somebody's, you know, running around in the space and being wild, he's pretty tempered. And, you know, he'll just sit on somebody else's lap if he needs to and just hang out. So I think really ultimately it's a benefit to have him there. It's just, and he's small, so it's not like he takes up a lot of space. It's just a matter of, yeah, bringing that him along for the ride. And yes, there are moments where, you know, if I have a really long rehearsal day and I'm, you know, we're in tech for an actual show and he can't be there. Um, my partner is really wonderful and um will take him and or stay with him. And then I do have a couple other people in my life that are in the little mix of uh we have these neighbors that they wish they could have a dog, but like the logistics of their life doesn't allow it. So when they're able to have him, it's just like what they wish they could have. Um, and then my father and I, I guess, have a transactional dynamic in that when he's out of town, I watch his dog. And when I'm out of town, he watches my dog. And so there's kind of this understanding that that is also something I could rely on in, you know, if I'm going abroad and I'm unable to bring him, or something that's a little bit more of like a personal trip that I want a little bit of space. Um, but for the most part, I want him there. Like I miss him, and I I miss his snuggles and I miss his cute little face and his everything. So I try as much as I can to have him along for the ride. Um, and obviously there are some exceptions.

SPEAKER_05 15:56

This is maybe a bit of a deeper question. Yeah. Or not are there any doorways he's opened for you in terms of what? Well, I guess if we see our dogs as uh uh a partnership walking up the path, all right, we call them that they're our babies and we're dog mum, but if we see them as a partnership, are there like when you're talking about going for work, it they have to be aligned with dog people. So I guess for the way I'm hearing it is he's helping you really work with the people that resonate with you. So he's making your path clearer. But I just wondered if there's any you know how if we have a certain character of dog, they will open up a doorway for us that we wouldn't necessarily have gone into before. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna place you on our podcast.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

I mean, I think in some ways in some ways, yeah. Like there's, you know, there is an absolute like stepping into the love in a more cognizant way of like, yeah, I'm not just like a dogma. It's like, no, I'm obsessed with him. Like, can I talk about him? And that's why I'm here. Um, so like, yeah, that kind of thing wouldn't necessarily happen. Um, you know, the kinds of gifts that people can get me for like, I don't love my birthday, but like, you know, it's like there's something like as long as his face is on something, like I will be the best gift that's ever been given. So I think for my friends and family, it's probably made that kind of easier for them of like, what do we get, Jennifer? Oh, just like get her a blanket with Walter's face. It's like, great, I I would I'm gonna love it. Um that is a funny tangent. I'll get back to what you're saying. So a partner of mine many years ago did buy a like a blanket with Walter's face repeating a bunch on it, and I left it on the couch in the living room. And in the middle of the night, he's not a barker. In the middle of the night, I'm hearing barking happening in the living room. I'm like, what's going on? And I come out and he's barking at the blanket, thinking that it's a bunch of dogs sitting on the living room couch, freaking out. And I had to hide the blanket. I could never use it. So maybe not the blankets, but what has he opened for me? Um, I think a lot of patience, um, there's uh and calm. I find his energy desperately calming for me. And I, you know, when I hold him, if I'm ever in some sort of, you know, emotional state that like needs a little bit of regulating, like there really is an actual science to the way in which our like heartbeats sink, or he does something to my literal body. Um, so there has been a leveling energy-wise, for sure, about having him in my life. Um, the joy that he brings me, I think my life is so much more joyful because even in the smaller little silly moments of him doing bizarre things, and I'm like, what are you doing? But it's so in it's just presence has really forced me in a in a non-bad way to just be like, oh, right, like this is what it means to be alive. Um, and I uh yeah, it's been a definite like regulation of like adding in more positivity and groundedness and breath, probably. And I don't know, I may have, I may have found that in other ways and certainly with like therapy and growth and aging, you know, I think those things kind of naturally hopefully fall more into place, but there has but his presence has certainly enforced those particular emotional qualities, not a doubt.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

And he obviously needed someone that was gonna take him on adventures.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

I think so. I think so. He was found running in Coachella Valley, which I guess people when they hear that, they're like, they think Coachella, it's not the same, but maybe he was- I just don't know what that is. In L it's in California, it's just this valley of hills, and he was like found running in these valleys. And I think for me that feels indicative of his kind of energy where he's just like a little bit of an explorer and he's just like running around in hills, like you know, whoever and he clearly was somebody's, he wasn't microchipped. They let him in, they kept him in the shelter for you know the period of time that they were supposed to to like see if anybody came and claimed him and they didn't. Um, and then obviously he was transferred to the rescue. But um, he he was mostly potty trained, he was mostly crate trained, which I've since you know taken away because I just want to be around him all the time. But uh he was kind of trained, and so he had a different family clearly beforehand, but he was seeking a new adventure. And I was adventure. Has he done any acting? Unofficially, it's funny. Anytime there's a show that like requires a dog, I'm like, can he do this? I think he can. It's just a matter of like, am I willing to like bring him to rehearsal and shows every night? You know, like do I want to be a dog stage mom or do I just want to be on stage myself? Like I that's the balance yet. But yeah, if there's ever a show that is looking for a dog and I also get to be in it, you best believe that will happen.

SPEAKER_05 20:55

Like on the front of a bike or something. Oh my god, anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Just like even in you know, like legal, yeah, legally blonde. They have a little dog that comes out and is held. Like it that's him. I don't care what dog you need, but that's it's he should be the dog.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah. So I I had a look at his little Instagram page, and he really is an adventurer, isn't he? I mean, he goes everywhere, it looks like he goes everywhere with you, from you know, the undergrounds to, you know, the back of a car to the beaches, to the mountains, to the outdoors, to, as you say, inside the studio. So I mean he's just such, he's one, as you say, one of those perfect dogs that you can take anywhere, do anything. Yeah. Is there something that he doesn't like? You'd mentioned wheels, anything with the wheels. Is is there something that he says no to? This I'm not gonna, this is not something that I'm gonna be comfortable with.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

At first, because again, I adopted him in California. Uh, we had taken him to the beach to like go to the waves, and he was not about it, like not about it at all. And then last summer, I was out in the Hamptons. With family. And we went to the beach. And my uncle has dogs. My mother has three dogs. It was just like six dogs at the beach and like three adults, you know, so outnumbered. And he saw the waves again. And I was like, oh, he's not gonna, he's really gonna hate this. He was obsessed, obsessed. I mean, like, we couldn't drag him away. He had his like just claws were like anchored into the sand. I had to pull him. He was obsessed with them. So at first I would have said waves, but now that's changed. I mean, like most dogs, any real loud noises, like the lightning and thunder situation. We're talking about fireworks, like any of that is like really a nightmare. Um, I may or may not have to like give him a little bit of CBD andor drugs to like mitigate that. Um, that's not his favorite. Um, when we approach getting a haircut, he knows the location at this point. And he's not the biggest fan of like entering, but he does it and tolerates it, I guess. Um where else? I wouldn't say he's not about it, but when I watch TV, he watches TV actually. Like he doesn't just sit there, he watches. And so if there's any animal on screen, he's also not about it. Like that is another time he will bark at the TV screen. Um, if there's a horse. I don't think he loves horses. I think he's afraid of horses. They're big, he's small, but I think he thinks he's big, so it's confusing for him. Um and other sheep. We were watching Stanley Tucci's Italy show, and there was a whole herd of sheep, and he was like, these I must herd the. I mean, like you're in an apartment. Like, I don't know where you think you're they're going or you're going, but that was another one he wasn't really a fan of. But I don't know if he doesn't like that or as much as he just feels like a sense of dominance. And I think that it that's like me to try to continue understanding whether it's like an interaction thing or a fear-based thing, and then we're trying to just like overcompensate.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

Sorry, go on, Kim.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

No, I just got two things. I just see him when you're watching TV and he sees an animal. That should be me.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

He would I mean he leap he would be in a deep sleep, a deep slumber, like a down and they know. And he's up and atom and ready. And I'm like, you're trying to dive into the television. This is act, this is not, this isn't real. Like, come back.

unknown 24:25

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

So I was just gonna ask, do you do you like I know you you talk to him all the time, obviously. But can you understand him? Like, do you have like can you are you intuitive?

SPEAKER_04 24:37

I am. Yeah. I know I I'm even like the ears, like I know what ear shapes are mean what, I his tail for sure, um, his like bot his posture, the way his eyes look at various points, the way he looks at me in certain situations. I am, I'm not gonna say I'm like a dog whisperer because that's I think that's like giving myself too much credit, but the two of us are too in sync, perhaps. Like I'm really and I think the opposite is said too, it could be said too. Like he I he knows when I am crying or if I'm having a really bad day or I'm super stressed. Like I sense the symbiotic relationship in that. And who's to say that he is comforting me versus me comforting him? Like sometimes it's like, where does it begin and where does it end? But because of the way in which we're connected, um yeah, I think there's definitely like we're able to kind of balance each other out during those moments because we're both really, really like clued in. Yeah. It's wild to talk about this in this space. I've never actually been given the opportunity to dive in. And I I think um I'm proud of myself and also like desperately embarrassed about like how much I love him.

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Well, I and I think you're amongst you with that.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Yeah, thanks for creating the stage piece.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I think it's really great that you do talk about it because I think so many people feel that that way about their animals, um, but don't want to say it out loud because of the social uh norms, let's say. That like how can you put an animal before a human? How can you love your dog more than you love your partner? Yeah. It's you know, it's it's not something that you we are supposed to do. Yeah. And yet, like you said, for me it's a completely different relationship. It's it's uh the relationship we have with our animals is a deep love, compassion, partnership, all of those things that we have with the human, but there's another layer onto it.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

That like you said, it goes it goes deeper than that. There is something that your dog knows you through and through, you know your dog through and through. Yeah. Um, and it's somebody that it's a being that you can be a 100% authentic and open and yourself with versus sometimes a partner or a friend or a family member or whatever, where we come to sometimes put these little masks on. And so I think it's such a beautifully authentic relationship. Why shouldn't we be um, you know, sharing that with the world and saying, look what a beautiful authentic relationship looks like.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Yeah. Oh, I love the way that you just said that. I think you synthesized it so beautifully. And I think ultimately, like that is, you know, I haven't really put it together in this way, but now that you've said it so beautifully, I think in some ways it's like, you know, we're humans, like humans are animals. That is who we are at base. And the thing that sets us apart is our communication and the way in which we feel and can express those feelings. And I think there's something to be said about the dynamic that happens with an actual animal that allows us to be more in touch with, and I say this with like the better part, like our animal instincts of really being able to actually be present, really being able to tune into survival, but not in the like or urgency of it, like survival of like what do we really need in this moment, the presence of that. And I I really do think that that is the difference and why I think so many of us have these relationships with our pets, is just because yeah, you don't have to put on anything in order to be perceived as something in the hierarchy of society. You just are, and you are received as such, and vice versa. And that is how it is to be in like the animal kingdom of like, are we safe here? Can we get the food? Like, that's it. You know, like are we friends or are we not? Um, and so yeah, there is truly like a real breath that goes into being just on in the way that you are, without trying to put anything on that a dog will witness and encourage and frankly require in order for it to get its own needs met. Um it's it really, you know, I'm so grateful and also deeply, deeply, deeply privileged that he is like my my first dog. And he's also frankly set me up for like absolute heartbreak for the rest of my life. Like I know that. He has spoiled me to the extent of like, oh, this is my expectation for what a dog will and should be. You know, I had dogs growing up that I love desperately. But if I think about them, I'm like, I could never have brought them on the subway. I could never have traveled with him the way that I do with him. I can never do so many of the things that I do with this dog. And whenever anybody meets him, they're like, oh my God, he's actually perfect. Objectively, like I know I'm biased, but just objectively, he's an incredible dog. And so the idea of, you know, and hopefully in the future, when I have many, many more and they fill my life for the rest of my life, there no dog will hold the candle. And for that, I do, I do have a lot of sadness because it's like truly not gonna get any better than this. And my heart will not be able to handle anything that happens on the other side of it. I'm like desperately afraid of that. It's bad. It's really bad. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:47

But he's obviously what you need right now.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Oh my gosh, like yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

He's exactly what you need right now. And if he lived with someone else, he would probably be a very different dog. Like, imagine if he lived with someone quiet. Maybe he'd be chaos.

SPEAKER_04 30:01

It's true.

SPEAKER_05 30:02

You know, maybe he would be causing chaos and like running off.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah, maybe that's why he ran away. He was like, This is unstimulating. Like this is give me some laugh, yeah. And now it's me. He's like, God, please let me sleep all the time. This is dysregulating for me. I don't know how else to survive.

SPEAKER_05 30:22

And I also just want to speak to that when the interspecies connection as well. Because I think there's this thing as human beings. Uh, I had a a client just before, and she was talking about being alone and being lonely. And I was thinking, it's such an interesting concept that, because we define lonely as not being around other human beings. But whenever I communicate with an animal, they're like, and there's squirrels, and there's sheep, and there's bugs, and there's plants, and there's air, and there's the stars. It's like, how can we ever feel really alone when we are because they're so connected to everything, and there are all of these species that having relationships with different species that you know, when you watch these documentaries. So my dog watches TV as well. She loves David Attenborough, anything that's nature-based, and she's fixated. Does she bark at anything on there? Dogs. Okay. Dogs. Yeah, dogs. She will shout at dogs. How dare they come into her living room where she's smoked salmon and all of that? Um, so but I think it's it's normal and healthy. And I I just think I love what you said about it, but you didn't use the word primal. But I like it brings out the animal in us and takes us back to who we are, yeah, and our truth and our roots. And that I just think they're the best. They're the best. I was gonna say gravy. I don't know why I say gravy. But I do quite like gravy and custard, but I think they're so good for the soul. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Yeah. It's just, I mean, you know, to make it more, you know, gender inclusive, but like, you know, they're the woman's best friend, you know. I think there's a reason for that. You know, cats are cute, I guess, but no one's ever said that about a cat in terms of like a phrase that gets put put on mugs and you know, in vacation homes that you rent on an Airbnb site, you know, like you don't like this now.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

It's in a yeah, there's a different vibe.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

And, you know, there's different people who fall into the gradient of both. And for me, if you're an animal person, regardless, I care about you because we we relate to beings in a very different way than people who are like, no. Um, I don't trust you if you don't like an animal. I really, really don't. I think there's something off, and I don't I it's just I don't, there isn't the trust. But a cat person's different than a dog person. They are. Um, they both are in touch with the primal animal part of themselves, perhaps in a different way than somebody who is not an animal fan. But a dog is different, and there's a reason a dog is man's best friend. Like the I love what you said about the loneliness of it all, where it's just like how many people, you know, go off solo into the mountains and they bring their dog with them. And they're like, I've never felt more alive and connected. You know, it's just and the quiet, but you have this living, breathing thing next to you that is just enjoying the life the way that they do and seeing the world the way that they do, and it makes you have to do the same. It's just an incredible mirror to what it means to be present on this planet. And I yeah, I I know that we've like domesticated essentially wolves to get to this point, but like whoever back then did that work, thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Well, yeah, they they are incredible in that way. So but uh what I'd like to know is if you were to ask Walter um about yourself, what would you think? What would Walter's answer be to what's your greatest, what does he think your greatest characteristic is?

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Wow, what a great question. It might make me cry.

SPEAKER_04 34:08

Um in some ways I'm kind of like, he's probably like uh she's uh she's just there. Like I run this joint. You know what I mean? Okay, I'll be more, I'll be more complimentary to myself. Um I think I think he would say that I take him on so many adventures and that he gets to see the world because I want to bring him there so he feels included. Um I'd say that he feels that I love him desperately, um, because there's no way for him not to know, maybe too much, to the point that, you know, like in the teenage years was like, okay, enough smothering. Um, that I'm a really good snuggler. And um, maybe it's because I have longer fingernails, or maybe it's because I just like love to hold him. But uh I essentially trained that into him. He was not that snuggly. Um and so I think uh he probably would say, yeah, he now loves to be held and touched because of my smothering. Um and that there is a bal he thinks that I am a good balance for him, and that he gets to go and do things, then he also gets to hang and chill. Um, and that there's fun and joy. You know, I I don't spoil him in the like food department. I think a lot of the way because I want him to live forever, you know. So I'll like give him some cheese, but not too much cheese, and I'll give him some peanut butter, but not a cong every day. Like, and so I think there is a real like reward system that has been ingrained in him that I think he's like, I I really know when she loves me, or like when I've done something really great, and that these treats show me that is the truth. Um yeah, I mean, I think he's a pretty happy dog. Um and I would hope that he would say that it's because of me and him, but me. Yeah, it's your heart. It's your heart.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

Yes. I would say it's it's more than magnetism. That's literally it's your heart is so huge and like beaming. And he and he says you're tall. I don't know if you are tall, but like it feels tall when you carry him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

I'm like I'm only five's six, which I don't know what that is in translation to everybody else's, you know, metrics in the world barring the states, you know. But um, I'm I'd say like I'm a hair above average. Like I'm not that that tall. I do have, I think people think I have tall energy the way I think he has big dog energy. So I think there's the two of us are kind of like entering into spaces with just like energy fields that just go a little bit wider. And so, yeah, we're pretty much a dynamic duo. But yeah, I think it's you know, I don't I get really emotional talking about him. I really do. Like uh I love him so much, it's so unhealthy. So it's not unhealthy. It is it is in the bet in the way that like God forbid something ever happens, like that's what I mean, where it's just like you know, I've cried at people's funerals, but like uh I mean anything that happens to this dog is like, yeah, heart.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

The heart came up when you were talking, and and for me, it's like I I've heard it come out a few times, and it's you talking about presence. And I feel like that he's brought that gift to you to help you be grounded and present. And and I just I I I can't help but just be in awe every time I hear stories of people and their animals and the connection.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Like what you look at your life right before he came to you. Oh my god. In California, like it's yeah, like it's astounding to me how the energies traverse the world to find each other. Yeah. And I I never ever, everybody's origin story is so good, but I love that you you have a great one because you weren't even in New York. I know.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Yeah, no, I he was not supposed to be mine. He really wasn't. And I had, you know, a couple different fosters before him that I was I was definitely like, oh my God. I mean, again, I cried for every one of those dogs, like somebody died too. You know, it it was just like, oh my God, I've seen you blossom and you become this thing under my wing. And maybe there's some ego involved around the fact that maybe I've re rehabilitated you and now it's like you're great again, and now another family gets to have you forever. And the crying that would happen after departing from these fosters. And there were a couple that I was like, am I making the wrong decision? Like, is this actually supposed to be my dog? And the second he rolled in, it was like, no, every single turn led me to him. Yeah, pandemic. I don't ever want to go back to those times. However, thank God it happened because I would never have had him ever, truly. Um and so I would do it every time over again. I would. He's, you know, he's the greatest gift I've had. It's I I love that you're saying it that way. And it really does feel the soul connection, and whether it's like woo-woo we're manifesting or whatever people say about like energy and the world. I really do feel um if we're listening to it, there is a pulse and there is, you know, our guts know things that we can't intellectualize. And that was a thing with him. It was like, this shouldn't be the thing that I like, but I'm drawn. Oh, that's this. I never thought it would he is nothing like the dog I thought I would ever have, but he's everything I actually needed. If I had gone out to look for him, I would never have found him because he wasn't what I thought I'd have, truly. Like he's smaller, he's so pretty, he's weird and funky, and he's a Chihuahua mostly. I would never in my life, ever, I'm not a Chihuahua fan until him. Right. Like he doesn't look like one, but he's like 60% Chihuahua. Like I would never have gone after him, ever. And then there I was looking at this cute little headshot in a sea of other dogs, and there's something about him that was like, this is pulling me to him, and I would never have found him if I wasn't out there.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yeah, totally. Exactly. It's always always it's always divinely timed.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

So here's another one. I want to go, I want to go deep into, and I'm gonna say the word codependence. Yeah, I'm gonna say it because that's what it is. Yeah, it is. So I could, I mean, I have had clients where I've coached them through a serious codependency with their dogs, and I personally used to have a very serious codependency with my dog. What I what I'm picking up from you though, and I want to what I want you to perhaps consider is that there's a codependency, which is an unhealthy codependency. An unhealthy codependency will bring out the worst characteristics in you. So in other words, somebody who's codependent about their dog, but every five minutes they're paranoid about the dog. Right. Right? It's like you can't do this and you can't do that, and you can't do this, and you can't do that. And they wrap them up in in cotton wool, yeah, and they become neurotic about their dogs. I'm not getting that energy from you, Jennifer. I'm getting this, yes, I love my dog to bits and pieces, but he brings out the best of me. He brings out, he makes my world whole. We love each other, we have adventures. To me, that's not an unhealthy codependency, if you want to call it that. Thank you. You know, it's I think there's a big difference there. And yes, and yet I can hear in your voice that there is a perhaps a slight tendency that you might be judged for loving your dog too much or smothering them, or et cetera. Yeah. But I want you to see the I want you to see the flip side of that.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

Thank you. No, I really appreciate that phrasing. And I guess I use the unhealthy of it because there are people who don't know, like they don't know it. I don't, I don't believe it's unhealthy. I have seen people exactly like you're talking about who do have that, where they're unable to leave their dog with anybody. They're unable to not look at a little doggy monitor. You know, I have one that I haven't looked at it in I don't even know how long, but it exists. I I honestly don't even know if it's like plugged in properly. But, you know, I have one in theory that I used to back in the day. But when I first adopted him, and then we, you know, came back from LA to New York, there was like a separation anxiety thing happening with him. And I immediately had a dog trainer virtually like come in essentially to like help that be mitigated because I do know for myself I really value my independence. And um, certainly with my career, I also need that at various points. And so there was a thing of like, all right, well, like he needs to be able to fit into my lifestyle. I can't adapt to the lifestyle I think he's demanding of me for X, Y, and Z reasons because I don't know where he's come from. And so that was something that I did immediately. And it was hard, you know, just like especially to do it virtually and also like, you know, to leave him in a crate, to leave him in a room, to leave him whatever. And I'm hearing him whining and howling and whatever he's doing. Um, and so I do think that that was something that I knew enough. And I do think that that happened because I fostered a lot of dogs that really, really were very, very uh, I would say codependent, and the needs that they had or separation anxiety was really high, or neuroticism was like really large. And so I think my experience in the foster space was helpful and also growing up with certain dogs that had different, you know, emotional whatever. Um so no, I don't feel like I'm codependent. I just feel like I want to be around him. Like, if anything, it's like it as you were saying, like the way that I am regulated while I'm around him, the way that I experience presence and joy and groundedness and life when I'm with him, that is for me the draw. Is like, why would I not want to be around a being that breaks that out in me? Um, but I and and I will say, like, I don't just let anybody watch him, you know, but that has less to do about my quote unquote codependency as much as I just don't trust people. Right. Like, you know, I and if anything were to happen, I do know that that would crush me. So in some ways, it's just like a method for me to be able to like protect myself from not having to potentially experience some absolute tragic situation. Um, and you know, like the first time somebody watches him, I will send them, you know, videos of like how do you put on his harness, like step by step, and like where are the things and what do you need to know, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I will be very protective. But yeah, I appreciate the reframe that it's not codependency, it's just being a very specific kind of mom.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Um it is. It's it, I mean, I have kids, so I know what it's like. And I'm very it is. There's a very that's why we call ourselves of often dog parents. Because it is that kind of the same kind of care and responsibility that you would for a human child, you know. It's the same side. I I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah. Um, I think it's again, it's pretty healthy unless it becomes unhealthy where the person or the dog becomes neurotic, either or both. Or you have to adapt your life to the dog. Like I think that again, in the best. And a lot of people, yes, a lot of people will do that. A lot of people will use actually, I'm gonna say use it as an excuse, but it's very t very often unconscious. Um, that they use their dog's behavior, let's call it maybe in this case separation anxiety. Um, they use that as I can never go out and I can never, you know, I can't do. But it's actually, it's just mirroring something in the person, I think. There will be elements that will the dog will have because of that. Perhaps it's abandonment issues and stuff that they've had in their previous life or or or you know, with their previous home. Um, but there was also it's almost like it's mirroring something in the human, the human's insecurities, the human's um an inability to face life or to um, you know, what be in public or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

So there usually is, I mean, you can tell that symbiosis often, I think. You know, they say like people eventually look like their dogs, or the dogs look at the people. And that is so true. I don't think we look alike, but maybe we do because he's so handsome and I'd like to think of that. Maybe it means like he got that genetically from me. And and, you know, like I I think there is that also energetically. Like when somebody rolls up with a certain kind of dog, you know something about them the way because of the dog that they have or the way in which the dog is. And or at least that's how I perceive it. And I think that that in some ways it does feel like chicken or the egg. And I don't know enough. This is probably where you all know far more about it than I do, around like, yeah, am I drawn to a dog with separation anxiety, and therefore that max because I have my own separation anxiety, and now both of us together are totally neurotic and have separation anxiety. Or, you know, is it I'm, you know, drawn to this dog that's really cagey because I'm a fixer by nature and I want to fix the dog, but now we're in like a you know, anxious attachment and you know, uh loophole. Like I there's probably studies, and hopefully there are more, that are done around that kind of attraction.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Dynamic, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

Yeah, and the dynamic. Um, it's an interesting thing. I really do I'm fascinated by it. And I will say there have definitely been seasons since I've had him where, you know, different hardships or highs and lows of my life have happened. And if I do think about the road of his emotional well-being throughout that, it definitely mirrors a lot of mine. Um, and or vice versa. Um, you know, the first time I ever had to take him to the emergency vet, I would felt like the worst parent ever, ever. I've never, you know, he was totally perfect and it was all my fault. I let him go up an escalator and he basically ripped out his toenail, and it was horrifying beyond. Everything's fine, thank God. But I was like, how dare I? Who am I? Oh my God, I should have known blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, that could have been a thing where it's like, because I threw myself into like this pit of despair, then his healing process would have been a pit of despair, and then maybe it wouldn't have healed so well. And it becomes this thing of like, at least if I'm aware of how I'm showing up energetically and he's gonna pick up on it, then I can potentially shift and vice versa. And so I don't know. I think as long as people are hopefully a little bit more cognizant of in in acknowledging, like, okay, I'm an anxious person, therefore I have an anxious dog. Like, it's just hard to admit when your you know, child isn't perfect.

unknown 48:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Look at you. I hear you talking about like rigidity versus flexibility, is kind of what comes to me in this conversation. And I think when we uh come into a relationship, if we could strip off the label of human and dog, like what does that become? Because really it's just two beings coming together to be in symbiosis with one another and to help you uh become like through curiosity become easier on yourself almost. And it's to help because we have a dog that speaks to what you were saying, where we have had to adjust our life for him. But what I wasn't being honest with about myself is and just in one sentence, he had a reaction to a rabies vaccine. Oh my god. And he went from this lovable guy to Cujo.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

And so we stopped taking him around people. But what I didn't realize, the gift in that was that I actually wanted to be more isolated. Like I was trying to do all the things, and now since I've slowed down my life, I'm writing a novel, and that never would have happened.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Ever in a million years. So you have to understand that even though there's this challenge, I don't want to call it a struggle, right? The tension, right? The pulling this way and that, that there's a gift in that if we are open to seeing it and not bashing against that door all the time. And I see that like has been your experience with Walter, and it's just a beautiful thing to watch unfold. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

And to get to know you. And it's why we're here on this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

So and why I'm so excited and grateful to be here. I'm also so sorry that you're navigating that. Like I, you know, it's just like any sort of shift, even if it's brought you this clarity for yourself and you know, opened up these uh unexpected doors and given you something that you didn't even realize you knew, it still doesn't make it easier when you had this being that you knew and loved as a certain thing, and now given something that was totally out of your control has shifted. And I can only imagine how hard that has been. Because the love doesn't change, the circumstances do, and it's really, really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

I think for years and years, I mean, it happened when he was, well, seven months old when it started. We didn't understand it. So we gave him a second one, and then when he was two, I think is when like we had we were herding. We were he's an Australian shepherd, so we were doing herding, we were doing agility, we were doing all these things. And I had this like I'm an old athlete, and I'm like, Oh, I just love doing all these things. And you know, and it and it in the way that it comes down, it's like it was a hard year and I was really hard on myself. I should have known, right? It's just like you're saying with the escalator, I should have known, I should have researched it, I should have, should have, should have that doesn't serve anything in this world. And so you just say, Okay, this is let's just slow down. Yeah. And see what's there. And I think, yeah, we have a great life. He's gonna be 13 this month. So I mean, it's it's different, but it's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

Yeah, yeah. And that you've been able to have the perspective from it too, I think is you know really beautiful, just naming what we were saying earlier that some people aren't willing to even look at themselves or the situation. Exactly. Yeah. And you've been able to, and also have been willing to adjust for yourself, not even just for the dog, like for you as well, and also to reflect on it in a way to be like, wow, look at the gorgeous, beautiful, unexpected gifts that have also come through this real hardship. And I think that that is something that I wish more people did. And also I think it's something that many dog parents actually do. Like good, I'm gonna, I mean, this is a qualifying word, but like in quotations, like good dog parents do, because really the main learning is how do we be so present? And if we're really listening into that and we're really focused on the presence of what is, then there are some beautiful doors and opportunities and things that never would have happened if we didn't listen for them in the hustle that is, you know, what it is to be a human. And so I think it's unfortunately really special that you've been able to adapt your life and learn from it and grow because of unfortunate circumstances.

SPEAKER_05 53:12

And I think that's one of their biggest teachings as dogs, isn't it? They're they're or they are I think you said it before, Jennifer, they are your mirror. Not in a like and not always in an obvious way. If you've got a dog that's biting people, I'm not saying that that person wants to go and attack people. You know, I that it's it's just they're always holding up that honest reflection of who are you today? Who are you? And like, and do you really like so my dog is a very athletic, free spirit that you know, she might have pinned the odd small fluffy dog. So we have a hard time with Walter. No, she'd probably love him. Walter be like, I'm big, don't pin me. Exactly. Yeah. So we're careful where we take her, but and and there was this but there was this like period of time when I got her, because I got her as a puppy, and I've always had rescues. So I've always had that oh, they're a rescue, they're a rescue. So I got this puppy, and we did all the right things, and then suddenly, like, she's just becoming more prey-driven towards certain dogs. And I'm like, Yeah, but I live somewhere really cosmopolitan. Look at all these people walking their dogs everywhere. And and I remember trying to walk her. I mean, sometimes she can do the beach, but only if it's quieter. I remember trying to walk at this place that was like, Oh, this would be really cool to walk her. And she went absolutely mental at this dog that went past. And my mate went, Yeah, but you don't like her there. And I was like, Yeah, I do. I love it here. I love walking there. And he's like, Yeah, but you don't. I'm like, yeah, no, I do, I really do. I really do like it. I really like it. So I like totally convinced myself that I loved being in that space. So then when we pivoted with her and started going different spaces, oh my god, I was like, Oh, I like this. Okay, I like this, is what feels good. And so it was almost like I needed one of her teachings was to get me out, even though I've chosen to live somewhere more urban and I can dip in and out, she's my nature baby. Like she gets me into nature and she keeps me fit, she keeps me on my toes, she gives me the, you know, she just so it I think they they do, they they just cut through shit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

Yeah. Very bullshit detectors is what I call them. And when or and only when we're ready to actually face, frankly, ourselves will we actually listen. Like, I love that your friend was like, no, that's bullshit. And you're like, it isn't, it isn't, it's so not. Until one day you're like, oh, it's I hate that you were I hate that you were right. Fine, fine. You know, like that's like true. Sometimes we're not ready for it. We're really not. Yeah, you know? And um yeah, again, like we can live our lives in denial. We can live our lives a little bit more bullish. And I have been privy to that and do that sometimes too. When you're like, no, I know, or I've invested so much time and energy into this one thing. It has to work. Yeah, my money, oh my God. Like it has to work. And then one day you wake up and you're like, it's it's not working. It's not and then I have to just accept that I've spent all that and done all that, and it just isn't the thing. It's just not the thing. Um, but that's a that's a moment of bravery and a big deal. And what a beautiful reward for both you and your furry lover, friend, child that you know, you get to make that decision for everyone involved. And I imagine when we listen mostly to our gut and the thing that we know, both intellectually and more importantly, somatically, that um it it probably is the quote unquote right thing for everybody involved. Um, just takes a moment.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

So it takes a lot of moments sometimes. Yeah. Any moment.

SPEAKER_04 56:58

Many years, much time.

SPEAKER_05 57:00

It's a puddle. Let me just slap you around the face a few times. Literally.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Yeah, completely. But I've I've always said I'd I'd much rather have those um, yeah, head slaps and whatever from from my canine friends than a with a human relationship. Any day.

SPEAKER_04 57:14

Yeah. Any day. If some of yeah, if people, some of the things that my dog did, if if a human being did some of it, I would never. There was a comedian that I I honestly wish I remember her name, but it stuck with me this set for years, for absolute years. Um, and she got on the on stage and it was a small little New York house, and she was talking about, you know, how her and her wife were like, you know, newly married and her wife started wanting children. She was like, no, I I can't, I can't, I don't want a baby at all. So the wife was like, fine, compromise. We'll get a dog. And she's like, I really don't want a dog. And the wife was like, we're gonna get a dog. I'm butchering the entire way that she told this, but they got a dog, and this woman was like, I really didn't want this dog. And then she like flips over and she's like, and now we go on walks and I hold this dog's literal hot shit in my hand, and I would do it every day, every day. And if you, like, as in her wife, if you had shot on the ground and asked me to pick it up, I won't. I'm married to you and you, I could never, like again, like I'm butchering the way that she talked about this. I was howling. And it stuck with me so much because it really is that kind of thing. Like we, if we really love this deeply, we would do things I would never do for somebody human that I love. I love my partner desperately. I would, I guess, grave situation that I can't even imagine in my life. God forbid this is even the case, that you're shitting on my floor in my home. You think I'd wipe that up? Are you out? You do it yourself. It came out of your butt. I I don't, but I'm watching my dog and giggling about how he's sitting and squatting with a lifting leg right in front of another apartment building. And then I'm taking a bag and I'm hot, scooping it up and holding it in my hand. That's crazy. That's crazy. But it's true. Like, we won't, I would never do that for a person. I would never do that for a person, I guess, barring some like extrenuous situations of like real, real, real, real gravity. And even then, I don't want to think about it because that's horrifying. But this, you pee on my carpet, I'm bad. But I know it's my fault. I left you too much water. Like, that's on me. Fine. Crazy. Yeah. I'll never forget that. I was like, that's true. Brilliant. Yeah, I'll just hold hot piping shit in my hand.

SPEAKER_05 59:24

Like publicly. Every day, twice a day, sometimes three. Okay, so this is confession time. And I'm fingers crossed, this isn't only me. Has anyone done a pretend pickup?

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

What do you mean? Yeah. Like pretend pickup. When you can't find the poo and you're not sure. So you just for sure.

SPEAKER_04 59:43

Also the ones and that not to be gruesome, but like that, and also like when you have when your dog is like unwell and there's like there's you know the lava situation. I mean, you can't you can't put water in a plastic bat. Like, am I picking up like I mean that's a hard that one is really the one that you're like, are there leaves and treats? Like, what is there a stuff? Am I gonna just miss it? Yeah, am I gonna build a little monument here so that no one sees what has come out of this living animal's asshole? Like that. That those have been rough. Those have been really rough. Though I will say that honestly, the thing that really does make me hate people is when you do see the like large, large feces and no one's picked it up. Like that for me is like I've been in the situation where I've like run out of a dog bag and you best believe I'm gonna like find two sticks and like hold the poop and like move it elsewhere. But like living in New York City or Brooklyn, you know, like it's just like and you see poop in the sidewalk, like and that's not the runny one. It's like a real solid situation. Like you chose to let your dog shit and run.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:50

Was it the dog or was it a human going, I'm not picking up your poop?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

I mean, maybe, and then you don't deserve to have your animal in the city at least. Like, let it go and shit in the woods, please. Let's fertile some trees. But like, I don't, you're there's concrete here. Like, baby, I don't, I'm just stepping in that. Like, no. Yeah, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Yeah, and it's people like that, unfortunately, who give dogs a bad name as well. You know, dogs and dog people a bad name because they don't.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Or even people who bring, you know, like a really unruly dog to like a restaurant and like, you know, and then the dog makes it really hard for anybody else to bring their dog to the restaurant in the future. Like, you know, there are certain people for sure that again, I don't believe I don't believe bad intent, but it's like you're maybe not listening to the needs of your dog. That like, is this over stimulating situation the kind of environment your dog would be thriving in? Leave your dog at home. Oh, you have separation anxiety. Maybe that's a thing that we need to work on. Like, you know, like there are things about listening to the needs for both you and the dog that I think then, yeah, the ramifications for other people then kind of roll out. And that's that that hurts my heart a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Do you take Walter out to eat? Oh, yeah. Does he wear a uh does you wear an outfit?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

He sometimes does. I never thought I'd be that person. I really didn't. And then I got a small dog. And because especially in the winter, some of these little outfits are oh my god, I should send you guys this one. He has this one sweatshirt that's like a little dinosaur and has like little dinosaur. Honestly, if I can find this video, let me see if I can find it. I think it's on my Instagram too. It's just him, and this is maybe profan, profane, profanity, but um this is, yeah, I have this. It's on my thing. Great. I'm gonna see if I can just like hold this up to here. Um, this is him. Well, this is him in like a little um yeah, so like I do dress him up. Like that's unhinged. But this this is him in an actual photo shoot wearing a shirt, you know, because why is it not? Oh my god. But this is and this is him in a different sweatshirt. Yeah, like a little muscle tee. Um, but this is the one, yeah. Maybe this is, but this is him in his little dinosaur. You know what I'm saying? Like, like what are like this is and then I video him, like the mother that I am. So I do dress him up.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

For anybody listening, that was um yeah, describe it. What happened? Come on, Kim. Walter was wearing a dinosaur outfit and there was a toy there, and he was bleep. And then it was over.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:27

That went on for a while, too. Yeah, yeah. So he does wear outfits. Um and honestly, it it really is mostly when it's cold, and I feel like it's serving a purpose of like he's smaller and he shakes if he's too cold. And on airplanes or when we travel on long days, it does in the like holding in uh whatever, like the weighted blanket kind of vibes with the thunder jackets, whatever they call those. Like he doesn't have an actual thunder coat, but I have found that like a sweatshirt or a t-shirt or whatever will calm his nervous uh system a little bit. And so I will usually throw him into something when we're traveling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Yeah, he's a spoiled guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

So you fly with him like under your like in a crate under your seat? I fly with him on me. He is registered as a service dog, which honestly, you know, at this point, I think if you've seen me cry about him, you can understand maybe why. But um so he is registered as a service dog and he'll usually just like sit on my lap. Um and by usually I mean he does, and he just hangs out and he's flown at this point a lot. Um, and so he's good. He's really, really good. The first time I ever flew with him from LA to New York, again, full, full, full pandemic. This was like summer, like fall 2020. Um, I was wearing like, you know, like face mask and another mask and gloves and wiping down my seat and all the things. Um, and he, and I had never done that before. And he had, I didn't know this until we got off the plane and he ran. I think it was JFK, like ran through JFK to go outside and take the largest shit I've ever seen in my life. But the last like two hours of the flight from LA to New York, he was like, I mean, around my like lap, just like really like circling and like looking out the window, and like I was like, oh my god, like I don't, he's not A, I don't have anything, even if I wanted him to to like you know, peer poop on the plane. He's not trained to do that. I don't ever use pads. Even when we went into like the you know, like the pet relief area with like the fake grass, he's like, this is fake. I'm not, it's inside, it's fake. I'm confused. I shouldn't, um, he won't. So I that that was barring that one time, he's really, really, really good on airplanes, and I'll usually give him like some ice, but I'm not too much because I don't want to have to pee. Like, it's just like the fine I've I've figured out like the way to um fly with him and also like his system to make sure that he's like actually empty beforehand and has peed sufficiently and hopefully pooped. Um, because that was a really awful experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

But that's Just another example, Jennifer, of that sort of communication that car goes on between you know what what do you need? How do I need what are the signs? You know, it's that getting to know another being on such a different level, on such a deep, deep level. Um, that's uh some of it's intuitive, some of it's you know, you literally physically watching them, some of it's you know, the energetic exchange. There's so many different things that go into that, but it's such a it's such a beautiful for me, it's such incredible dynamic of how you get to really communicate with another being and another species about just that. How do we help you to do this flight thing, which is a very human thing and you're a very dog thing? Yeah. Um, but we're gonna we're gonna work it out, we're gonna figure it out. And isn't that a beautiful thing that you can you get to do that in our these relationships where you get to figure out something that may be fairly simple for some people, but it's really a complicated thing that you're asking a dog to do. Yeah. And and yet there's that communication, that understanding of what do you need from me, how can I support you through that? I think that's pretty beautiful. Thanks. Yeah. I mean if we I think if we if we were to take most situations like that, instead of like, I need to train my dog to do X, Y, Z, there's like this is the situation I I get that you may perceive it or or um understand it completely differently to the way I do. How do we figure this out together? How do we work together so that we can both get what we need? Um make it the most, yeah, the best experience for both of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:28

I mean, I will say, like, it's like in some not that I'm like building my life around him. I'm not, but you know, I know like if I'm gonna be taking a really early flight, which I hate anyway, I'm not a morning person, but like if I have to for some reason, I will, you know, and maybe this is good or bad, and somebody might come after me for it. But, you know, like the night before, I won't really let him have his evening poop. Like, I'll kind of like hold that one for him, which he he's at this point like adaptable around, so that I know, like, come that morning, we are guaranteeing that happens. Or, you know, I'll walk him a little bit earlier than I normally would at like a late night walk, which for me is like, you know, midnight. Like I'm walking him later. Like, I won't, I'll maybe not do that if I know that he has to get up really early so he gets like more of a full night's sleep, or you know, if we're going on a later flight or whatever, I'm gonna make sure that he has had like a very full day of activity so that he's not like, you know, energized by the time we get to the airport. Like I do know his patterns and I also know what I then have control over in order to help make it the easiest thing possible for him. Yeah. And I think that's my role. Like, I think if I wasn't doing that, I wouldn't be uh um as good of a dog parent as I I could be. And he deserves that. So I kind of have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

Yeah, I think I think they all deserve that. I think they deserve because we've we're inviting them into our lives in a very human-centric world. Um, I think we owe it to them in that regard that we do make it as as as as pleasant for them as possible where we can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:57

I have a question for all of you though, because I imagine you have all had many dogs, multiple dogs, a couple dogs, yeah. Okay. Not that this is happening, thank God, hopefully, anytime soon, but like how do you emotionally go through the heartbreak or the navigation of a different kind of energy of another dog? And or I guess simultaneously, if you have two dogs at the same time, how do you do a balance of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

So I'm I'm gonna jump in here and be honest. Haven't said this on the podcast, but Kim and Rachel know that I lost my hot dog in May. Uh it was unexpected. She was 12 years old, but it was not expected. So sorry. Um and yes, it's it hurt like fuck. Yeah. It's you know, you as you say, you are so uh incredibly bonded to this other being in your life. And and I lost my mom during COVID. Um and I wasn't actually able to be with her during that time because I wasn't able, she was in South Africa. I was I live in Austria and I wasn't even able to fly. So it was really um an uncomfortable uh situation. And of course, my mum and I had a very close relationship. But it's I will say that it's even and maybe people will again will shoot me down for this, but it I it was even a harder grief for me with my dog because I think one of the reasons is that I you live with that dog 24-7, they are by your side all the time. You know, I've obviously with my mum, I'm not a kid anymore. I've got my own family and we saw each other from time to time, but we weren't in each other's space 24-7. So it is an intense relationship that we have with our dogs. And it was it was, it was um, it was heartbreaking, but at the same time that the the the the realizations as these things were happening, um it's it for another episode, but it's that I actually heard her as clear as daylight say to me, my final gift to you is the gift of grief. And I'm like, oh god, how could grief be a gift? But let me tell you it is because it's it's it's it's it's she like helped me through every part of it, and she still is, she still is on the other side, she's still helping me through this. Um, and it's just I think it's it's it's not something we want. None of us want to ever face that day, none of us even want to think of that day. But let me tell you, um, and Kim will vouch for this, I know you've said as well, and Rachel, it's the most exquisite, onerous thing that we get to do is to actually see a dog through their entire life and then be with them for their final moment of passing. It is whoa. Yeah, it's it it is such an honor. It is such a fucking honor that we get to do that. Um so yes, it's it hurts like hell, but it is the most exquisite beautiful experience to yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

I think it was it's not been two years since we lost uh our dog Sammy. And we've had seven dogs in our life, so we have two now, and we had three, but Zam was pushing 18, but not real sure because she was a rescue. Um most dogs we have uh helped across. And I absolutely with my whole heart knew it. And you said something earlier about somatics, like and the somatic feeling. And I think that when we can learn to use that as a guide, yeah, like you just know so much more through your intuition. We can call it intuition, you can call it psychic, you call it whatever word you want. Yeah, but we feel that connection, and I knew she did not want help, and she came like one she was all about food, and one day she just looked at her bowl and she looked up and said, I'm I'm tired. And it was 12 days, 12 days. She wandered around this house for 24 hours straight, and I'm like, and I'm watching everything. I'm like, okay, I've not done this before, so you have to help me. Like, let's help each other. She got all of her steps out, and then she laid down and she was just content. All the people that she knew happened to come by and say goodbye. 12 days, and then we knew what her final day was, and we took her out. She was laying in the grass, it was August. And we have fox that live in our we're not urban, so we have a fox that live right outside our fence. And and the fox came by and just looked at her and went like this and nodded, and walked past her and walked away. And that night between us on the couch, she just took her last breath. And it was absolutely one of the most incredible, painful, brutal, beautiful things I've ever done was to grant her that wish. And I I have a window right over here, and she's under a tree, right outside that window, and she's here every day. I miss that we laugh every day about all the memories and the things, but she's here, and that's the thing, forever here. And so, yeah, it it is it's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

Yeah, yeah. They yeah, they certainly teach us about life and death if we get you know, if we're able to get that far with them. Yeah. Um they teach us everything, everything from start to finish, really, yeah, that we need to know. And yeah, what a privilege that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:00

And they also teach you that connection never ends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

It doesn't end. It's honestly as strong today, it's different. Yeah, but it's as strong today. It's just different. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

It's just different. It's just different.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:15

And look at what's happening here. Like you guys are literally killing me.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:20

I'm just crying over here in the corner.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:23

But that you saying when you said the words grief is a gift, you could almost say that flippantly, and but we hear those things, don't we? We hear people say those things, but there's but you can witness what is happening in this space between the four of us. It's like we're feeling each other, and it's and you know, and it take anyone that will be listening will feel that that the body of whatever it is, the pain or the the missing or the longing. Like, so my boy was Baxter and he said, No, I'm here. Oh, that's weird, isn't it? I just keep going. So, yeah, it was my it was my boy Baxter who who yeah, he was probably also only 13 and he was slowing down, and it was just that that day where I just knew he was ready and he he was like, I've got to be outside. And I've I mean he probably could have died naturally, but we had the vet come in and to help ease it. But it for me, what happened afterwards, I can really feel this, was I was like, Who the hell am I without him? Because I was like, he was my everything. Yeah, so it was that like who you know, going on walks, like who like, and it was such a uh a shedding, it was massive, it was massive. It and yeah, and it's still there, obviously still that's still with me on some level, but I I hadn't realized how much we were the same being. So when he was gone and he was a big boy, oh my god, it was that that I'm feeling it, but I think that's the thing is the grip when we talk from that place of deep emotion, and often grief does take us there, then shit, do we connect to everything and everyone around us? It I feel like it is one of those emotions that helps connect us beyond words.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:43

Maybe so thank you for asking that question.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:45

That was Noah wasn't the most optimistic of them, but I feel like we've we've talked pretty deeply and I I wanted to hear from you all.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:54

Yeah, it was perfect. It was perfect. How old are Walter?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:01

Um, again, it's like who's to say? When I adopted him, they said he was a year. Okay. Um, so he just had his seventh birthday, we think, um, in June. Um, so he's yeah, he's, you know, 40, 40-year-old man. Um, you know, it's I feel like I've seen him through the different seasons of like age in that. Like there is like the puppy phase without I didn't have to do like the full, full puppy, which in some ways I'm actually really grateful for, honestly, because that's a different brutal thing. And I've inherited him as this thing that kind of already had something to him and it's ready-made. Yeah, but like not fully formed enough that like there was like I didn't have to deal with the, you know, oh my god, you're peeing everywhere all the time. Um and now to see him in this more like, yeah, middle-aged vibes feels he's definitely more settled and calm and knows routine. And, you know, I just pray and hope and that I have, you know, another 10 years without us. So that's that's all I dream of. And if there were anything that, you know, I could do to enhance that, then I would.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

So I'll tell you, I'll tell you what we can all do to enhance that, Jennifer. And that is just appreciate every single day and every single moment. I think that is the best thing that the best way we can do that, not through, you know, what's the best diet and what's the best health regime and whatever. It's that presence of being with them and making those incredible memories and moments with them in every moment. I think is the most precious thing that we can do. I think it's exactly what you're doing. How long have we got with you? You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:42

It's exactly what you're doing. You want to be with him. You do things with him, right? Strip away human dog and just be with that being that completes you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:53

Because you complete him too. It's not one-sided, it's that circle. And you said you don't know where something ends, it doesn't end, it just is connected folly.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Yeah. And I'm gonna I'm gonna take what Rachel said there, because I think you said it really well. Who well, who am I without my dog? But it's not a and and that like what you said, Kim, the automatic thought is we complete each other. I just want you I want to hone in on the we are the same being, like Rachel said. We are not separate. We we appear to be two separate beings. We're not, we are one and the same.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:29

Yeah, which is why it's so deep and intense and ultimately sometimes really painful. So and messy. And messy, and messy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

And but that's part of life too, right? That's why they, you know, it's all of life, not just not just the good stuff. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:45

I'm here for all of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:50

Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:51

Uh, this has been amazing. I've really loved this episode. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:56

Thank you for having me in the space and for holding such a warm and open and vulnerable and just yeah, real. It's just been such a previous privilege to be able to talk like this. I've been on so many other podcasts that are not that there's anything wrong with this, and obviously I have my own too, where it's just so much more about my career and about the industry and about being an artist. And, you know, for me, I'm so much more interested in in being a human being. And this has allowed me to, not that I'm not as an artist too, I am myself in all of it, but there's something about really just being able to just like be the human part of me and embrace the thing that I love in a very different kind of way in this space. And so thank you for welcoming me in in season two and for having such a beautiful space for people to just feel what they feel for their own pets and in their own lives and to learn more. And it's just I'm really grateful.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

I mean, that was a pretty cool wrap.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

Yeah. Thank you for letting us into your life. Thank you. And with Walter, it was it's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

Thank you. Thank you, Jennifer. What an honor. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:06

And we'll just say to any listeners, because we're really rubbish at this bit, is do like and subscribe. And let us know what, you know, let us know how this has landed for you. Let us know how what it's brought up for you. Because we we really do bounce off the conversations that happen around us, not just within this space. So you you your journey matters too. Yeah. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

Thank you. Till next time.