Episode 015: From Fixing to Listening: How We Really Got Started Working With Dogs

How did we actually get here? 

This is no April Fool, LoL

The origin story of Rachel, Kim, and Sue. How we working with dogs, behavior, communication, and everything in between.

In this episode of Unruly By Nature, we answer a listener question that turned into something much bigger: the real stories behind how each of us started working with dogs and the challenges that shaped how we ended up where we are today.

From corporate careers to rescue work… from “perfect dogs” to life-altering struggles… this conversation dives into the toughest moments, the sensitive moments. The moments that shifted our perspective, and ultimately led us away from fixing and into intuitive listening.

Most of us didn’t start here. We started frustrated, overwhelmed, and trying to get it “right.” We started trying to "fix" everything. And we realized our dogs are helping us understand more about life than we ever could have imagined.

Inside this episode:

• The unexpected paths that led us into working with dogs
• The dogs that changed everything (and nearly broke us)
• Why the “fix-it” mindset keeps you stuck
• How perspective shifts change your entire relationship
• The moment intuition starts to replace control

This is the episode for anyone who feels like they’ve tried all the textbook solutions. It is for the oned who know there’s something deeper waiting to be understood. It's for the curious.

Because your dog isn’t here to be fixed, they are here to walk through this life by your side. Carefree and connected.

xoxo

Rachel, Sue, and Kim

Thanks for wandering the wild edges with us on Unruly By Nature.

 If you loved this conversation, share it with someone who’s ready to explore the deeper side of life with dogs.

Rachel Knott of My Animal Matters

Website: rachelknott.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/myanimalmatters

Kim Howatt of Raidho Canine

Website: kimberlyhowatt.com

Substack: https://kimberlyhowatt.substack.com/

Sue Mimm of Heart Connection Dogs

Substack: https://suemimm.substack.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/pawsreflectconnect

Until next time — stay curious, stay connected, stay unruly.

xoxo 

Kim, Sue, and Rachel

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Hello, everybody, and welcome back. We're on episode 15. And here I am, Sue Mim with my darling Rachel and Kimberly, and we're here to talk about dogs, plants, people, life, and all things in between. It's unscripted. We're just here to have fun. We're here to have a conversation, and we're inviting you, as the listeners, to join us, to listen in, to subscribe, to comment, to share your views, and to join the conversation with us. And so one of the things that we put out, uh, well, Rachel asked a question on Instagram and said to the followers of the of the podcast, what would you like to hear? Is there a specific topic you'd like to hear or some question you'd like us to answer? And we got a lovely one from Carol, which is how did we, each individually, get into working with dogs? How did we get to be where we are today? And how did we start working with dogs? So I thought that's a wonderful question to begin the session with. And I'm going to pass it over to Rachel first.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Um I thought you were gonna do it alphabetically then. I don't know why I went back to primary school.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Uh I'm just doing it because you you had that beautiful look on your face for those in you that um look on your face.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

So, yeah, let's go ahead and share. It was for me, it was a really um easy shift because I was working in a job I didn't like. So I was working in the corporate world, which is hilarious when I think about it now, wearing a suit sat at a sat at a desk with targets on the wall. I was a recruitment consultant. I mean, I laugh at that. Well, that's what my partner does now, and she's excellent at it, but I was not very good, shall we say. And um, I remember sitting at my desk, and we would have had charts on the wall with our targets, and we had pens and paper and all of those little boxes where you have the cards in and a file of facts and all of those things. And I remember looking at the targets on the wall, hearing all the phones ringing in the background, and I'm looking at the targets going, I don't get this. I don't really understand. It was just such, and I can feel it so clearly now. It's like I don't, what is the point? I don't get it. What is the point to this? It makes no sense to me. And within probably within about a week, I was made redundant because for many reasons, probably I just was inept, inept and messed around quite a lot and had a lot of fun and probably didn't really earn them much money. So I was made redundant, and and I was in a situation where I didn't have to work at that point, and I sat at home and I thought, well, what do I like doing? What do I enjoy? I like dogs. And because I was living in London, the most obvious thing to do is go and volunteer at Battery Dogs Home, which is the biggest and oldest charity, dog charity in the UK. And I went along and I met a lady called Ganda Swadling, which I thought was a great name, Ganda Swadling, Gander's Goose, Gander Swadling. Anyway, she was the little volunteer and she said, Oh, we're doing a dog, we're doing a reunion day where everyone that has rehomed a dog comes along and meets um meets all the rehomers and meets all of the other dogs, and they bring back their dogs that they've rescued. And I was given this greyhound to walk. I'd never met a greyhound in my life, and I was given this big black greyhound. I remember his whole body was shaking, his teeth were chattering, and every you know how they can shake, don't they, greyhounds? And I just thought, Wait, summer, why is he shaking? What's he cold for? Didn't I didn't understand why he was shaking? And then I walked around a ring with him and he converted me to greyhounds, but very shortly after being a volunteer, I got a job there as a rehomer, which is where you basically match the people up with the with the appropriate dog, and it was the best job I've ever had. And that's where it all began, was at Battersea Dog's home.

SPEAKER_06 5:32

That's amazing. Brilliant. I love that. I mean, because at the end of the day, you were helping match the dog with the family, so you were still doing recruitment. Yes. So amazing. That's amazing. I mean, it's like you learned the skill in corporate that you like then helped so many people in a way that meant something to your heart, which is awesome. That's cool. And then I just before I start, I I have to say file of facts. How old are you?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Like you're really aging yourself here. That's just ancient. That might be more ancient. Maybe they were in a really old-fashioned thingy. It would have been in the 1990s. Oh no, no, you're trying to fix it. I probably felt ancient. I love this. What's funny is the visual of me sat in a suit. Really.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

You see, you've had really dating yourself because back then in home office you could get away with the shirt on top and pajama pants down below. But now you wear this sitting in a suit. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 7:17

What do you think I'm wearing right now? I'm wearing a shirt.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

All right, just to show what are you wearing below.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Now is that UK pants or American pants? Because in the UK that's knickers. He's wearing knickers. Then it's US pants.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

I need to be careful.

SPEAKER_06 7:59

We're moving off top. That was a great question, Carol. Thank you. Oh man. So Kim, how did you get into Doug? It was not all that dissimilar to Rachel. I started in corporate. I was a computer software designer for 29 years or so. And um, I uh unlike Rachel, I I loved it, and I had zero intention of ever leaving my career, but we adopted a dog. I love dogs, and we've had dogs ever since we got married. We got married and we already had our name in for a little corgi puppy, and and I didn't know anything at the time at all. So he came, uh he came into our life, and but it was like five dogs later, I would say. And I do have to say there may be a little bit of a trigger warning, so I'm just gonna put a warning out here because I'm telling the I'm telling my truth of this story. And we adopted an Australian Shepherd, and he I worked for Australian Shepherd Rescue at the time as a volunteer, and we adopted a puppy through them. He was nine weeks old, and we had like the most brilliant life, and he was going to be my everything dog. Like we did agility, we did tricks, we did, I just loved sports, and I have had a lot of injuries, and so I personally don't play sports, but to be able to help my dog and so and do that with them felt so good. And when he was seven or eight months old, we gave him his first rabies vaccine and he got really sick, really sick, like a month later, sick, and we didn't know that that was a catalyst at the time. And he got, I mean, just he could fill a room with vomit. And he he's supposed to be gaining weight as a puppy, and he lost 10 pounds, and I didn't know what to do. And the vets are like, you're feeding him bad food, we feed home cooked, raw, like nutritionally like species appropriate food, and like they handed us cans of science diet. And I just didn't understand, and I couldn't make myself understand. So fast forward to when he was two, and we have to give the second rabies vaccine because you can only do the one year first, so then after a year, and we waited just because he was so sick, we gave him the second one, and this beautiful red mural Austrian Shepherd went from a dog who loved everyone, he loved to attend rescue events, and he turned into Cujo. And I had absolutely no ability to help him. I thought it was me screwing up. I thought I wasn't doing something. People said he's too you sh you don't understand herding breeds and shouldn't have this kind of a dog. We'd had a Corgi, we'd had an Aussie before him, we'd had a border collie mix before him. I didn't understand. So we went to trainer. I think it was at least eight trainers. We reactive dog class, aggressive dog class, dis dog class, and he he bit a couple of times. And it was a really a matter of choice that I either learn some shit or he's euthanized. And I decided I was gonna learn some shit, and I threw myself into whatever I could find. We met a homeopath, I went down that road of homeopathy, it helped a lot. I started looking into partnership and relationship with an animal as opposed to hardcore obedience, which we had done all gamut of training. And I it just I it was a hobby for a while, and then I at some point I had learned so many things and had so many experiences, and I saw so many people in a similar space that I just on a whim, I went from working out, I drove five minutes to my office and I said, I have to retire. I have no idea what I'm gonna do, but I have to leave because I need to help dogs, and that was my mission. And so was I a trainer? Not really. Did I learn a lot about behavior for sure? I did get certified as a partnership coach, I didn't love it. That's when I met Sue, and like our paths crossed then. And I mean, so how can you not be grateful for the gift of meeting one of your best friends in the whole world? Honestly. And then we met Rachel because we took your Zoo Pharma course, and again, it's this if none of this had happened, if I'd had the perfect everything dog, I wouldn't have met the people that I'm so close to. And I I it just kept going, and then it turned into animal communication and like and I can't seem to stop the evolution now. I don't want to because it's just fun. And now it's you know, it's turned into I'm writing and writing novels and short stories. And this beautiful boy that got so sick is 12 and a half years old, and he's got the best life. It's not the life I had imagined, but we have the best life together, and so that's where I got my start.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

That's so cool. We're so blessed, actually, when you think about it, hey, in hindsight. But I hear you, Kim, those days, those early days, you know, when you have that that dog that comes into your life and just pulls it apart, right? And um there's so much worry, there's so much anxiety, there's so much guilt, there's so much heartbreak that we go through during that time, that it is um it's something very real. And I hear you, that's why, you know, when you go through something like that, you you the natural thing is to want to help people. Natural thing is to want to share with others um who are going through the same space. Um, so I think that's again, all you know, um something that's so similar in so many different stories of animal professionals get into it because, like you, Rachel, as well, you didn't mention, but you also have had animals in your life that have really been challenging or difficult or different than you know, than we expected, and they've taken us down these paths. And yeah, the same was me with Charlie. I had actually just moved to England. Um, my kids were finishing up in high school, and I decided that it was a time that I had I had devoted um, you know, my last whatever fifteen, seventeen years to my kids um being a full-time mum. And before that I had grown up with animals. I'd always grown up with animals, I'd always had dogs in our life, I've had horses and cats and guinea pigs and rabbits and you name it. We've had them all. And um it came a time in my life as we when we moved to the UK, and I knew my kids didn't need me as much as any more, and I said, I'd really love to follow a lifelong dream that I had had, which was to be a um vet nurse. Um, what do you call it in um the US? A vet tech, but a vet tech. Yeah. That had kind of been a dream of mine that I'd put on the side for a long time. And so um I decided I was gonna go back and see if I could start studying that, which I'd always, you know, picked out one or two courses. And at the same time, I said it's time that we can get a dog in our life again because we hadn't had one for so long, but we had the property and we had the space where we lived, and you know, living close to the dales, it was just like, oh, this is gonna be so cool. So we went to uh we looked around at the shelters and we found a dog called Charlie, who came home with us pretty rapidly. It was a very quick adoption, and he was perfect for us, but perfectly imperfect. He was again, you know, like, oh my gosh, I wish we had somebody who'd who'd helped us to understand the process of, you know, it's so easy to think I'm going there to an adopted dog to give it a good home. It's all what we think in our heads, like this is what life is gonna look like. I'm gonna give this dog the most beautiful life ever. Like I said, we've got the property, we had, you know, close to beautiful rolling hills where we could walk our dog. Uh, we want to do, we bought a whole lot of camping equipment. We were gonna go camping and hiking and do all these outdoor activities, and we think, oh, a dog would just love to do this with us. And what about a dog from a rescue who's never had the possibility of such a brilliant life? And so it all comes from our side of this is what we think is a brilliant life, this is what we um presume that any dog would absolutely love to have. And yet, and Charlie was the character who looked like he certainly would have, but because of his um background, because of uh what he had and hadn't learned in his very short life of nine months at that stage when we got him, was everything against having that kind of lifestyle. He was just so overwhelmed by new environments, he was so overwhelmed by big spaces, big open spaces, that he he couldn't cope. He certainly, you know, he he was a bright button. We took him to training classes and inside a little hall, he was brilliant, he learned clicker training, he's you know, super sparky, learned all these little tricks, etc. But in any other environment, like let's go for a walk or let's go camping was just a nightmare. I mean, I remember first camping trip, he just had diarrhea the whole time, um, stopped eating, and was just a mess. And his sort of reaction was either shut down or it was fight-flight, and pulling on the lead meant his was his way of like get me the hell out of here. And he wouldn't know where to get to, but he just wanted to run, and so he would just pull us around on the lead like a crazy person. And the couple of times that we decided to try and see him let him off leash, he was gone. He would chase anything, would spend hours running away, couldn't, you know, not coming back, and you know, you know, the fear of anybody who's experienced that oh my god, where's he gone? What's he doing? Anyway, um, so long story, he he led me down a path I decided to change from vet tech to behavior. I wanted to understand, I wanted to understand how this dog, what he needed from from me to support him so that he could start, you know, adapting to this life that we had brought him, invited him into it, thinking he would absolutely love it, but certainly wasn't thriving in so many ways. And so, yeah, it was my um it was my heart that I really wanted to learn learn about him, what made him tick and why he was behaving the way he was. But also out of desperation, I was just desperate because he had turned our lives upside down, um, caused so much family trauma. You know, we were all arguing, we were all had different opinions about it, and um our walks and our camping trips were an absolute he was a nightmare, you know. It so it was it was really from from our side, it was from desperation that I needed to understand because although we went to a lot of dog trainers and and really good ones, I mean, that people who really understood dog behavior and you know, not into all the obedience stuff were really, really good positive trainers. Um, but even they, you know, could only help me to a certain extent. So it was fascinating. I went down the whole path of behavior and specifically for me, you know, neuroscience and understanding the dog's brain and their neurochemistry and and understanding the the different um the states of their nervous system was so important to me because I could start recognizing it. And I think when it comes down what when you were saying, Kim, um about understanding our animals or going down these paths, is what it's really how we want to understand their communication. We want to understand what's what's going on inside their world, how they're perceiving the world, how and how they communicate what how they're feeling. And I think for me, you know, going forward into that, why I then became I wanted to make it a career was just that. I wanted people to understand what I was learning that was like so mind-blowing to me. You know, it it really is mind-blowing when you think that this dog or any animal has an entire different perspective on the world to that to the one we have. And they they don't think like we do, they don't reason like we do, they don't live in worldly concepts like we do, they don't have uh human social programming like we do. And so we come into relationships with our dogs with with humanized concepts and humanized agendas. And it's just such a mind blowing thing to me to realize. That the dogs have a totally different world that we're not even connecting to. And so for me to be able to share that with people and to help them to see their dogs differently, to perceive their dogs differently, to slow down, look, observe, learn the communication, learn to listen with all your senses and that kind of thing is just such a powerful thing because you just get such a it's it's such a different uh ball game to say I'm living with an animal in my life that we are learning from each other and I'm learning about a different species and how they adapt and how they learn and all these things versus I have a dog and I want them to do a certain thing and they're not doing it and therefore they have preach it.

SPEAKER_06 22:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

So yeah, that's that's where I'm at at the moment. Um, you know, even though I've done I've been a qualified trainer behaviorist for over 10 years, 12 years nearly. But the thing is, I just it's it's it's evolved from that in that I, you know, don't even really call myself a trainer anymore because it's not predominantly what I do. And going forward, like you said, it evolves, Kim. So for me, it's just about again, you know, sharing what I've learned and sharing about this new perspective on how we could um invite our animals into our lives in a completely different from a completely different perspective.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

So where to go from that, girls? What are you picking up?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Go on, Kill.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Go ahead, Ray.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

No. Well, I was just about to say I absolutely loved everything of what you said there, Sue. It it's I don't even know where to begin. I think someone said to me the other day, there's two sides to every coin. And I was like, there isn't even a coin. What what what and that and I think we we s our perception muscles are quite calcified as human beings. I think we have a very, very rigid, and this isn't I'm not saying you know, we that's a bad thing. It just is to have that awareness that our perception is our perception. It's just that's my perception, which is why we're doing this podcast. There's just three of us, and we we only have three different perspectives, but there are a gazillion others, and we're the same species. And we filter things, uh dogs filter the world differently, and my dog will filter the world differently from your dogs, etc. etc. And I I just the and uh we may have said this before, but I I I think the way to simplify things for me personally is to meet that being for the first time, even if I've lived with them for 12 years, is there is this intelligence that I am experiencing in a shared field. This let you know, they're a yes, they're a dog, but it's another being that is experiencing life through their lens, and I'm approaching it as a human being with my human construct of that's a dog, and I want them to do this, and all of that is playing out. But in order to kind of move through that and to expand my perception, is my way of doing it is like, who are you today? Like, show me you today, and and it's not that I'm expecting these downloads of oh, I am this, you know, it then puts me in a space of curiosity and more empathy rather than this rigid, calcified, narrowed view of which for me creates the biggest level of disconnect from our days. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

So, Rachel, I I'd love to just pick up that because that's I was uh thinking about that uh actually yesterday on a walk. I was watching Charlie sort of just trottling along and he looks up at me and he had this big smile on his face and he was doing his thing. And I thought exactly what you said, when you ask sort of a dog, Who are you today? It's the same as saying, you know, you meet a friend and you say, How are you today? And they will tell you in words, if they're honest enough, they'll say, I'm having a really sucky day. Thanks. I'm feeling like shit, or I'm having a great day, I'm feeling on top of the world, whatever that is. They're going to give you some information, hopefully, honestly, about how they're feeling. And depending on what they say is how you respond differently to that. So, like you said, you don't expect your dog to give you a thousand downloads about in words, well, what the what you know what they're doing, but you can see through their body language and through their um, you know, what they're doing, their movement, everything, you can get information about how they may be feeling in a particular may be feeling in a particular day or particular situation. And for me, as I said, I saw happiness in Charlie that day. I I saw a little bit of stiffness in his back end, which he's he's aging now, he's he's gonna be 14 this year. So I saw a little bit of stiffness, but I also saw a lot of joy and I saw a lot of um gentleness in him. And so it just gives me information on this particular day what we can and cannot do, or may or may not do, for instance. Like I might decide when I'm asking my dog, how are you today? what what walk we'll take or what activity we may or may not do because of how that individual is feeling. And I just think how many people do that? How many people actually will ask their dog whether it's just through observation or with words, and then actually adjust depending on their feedback that they get? I love that.

SPEAKER_06 28:16

I actually love that because it's something that we've done for a long time, and I think I didn't even know what I was doing, but it was as you start to come down this path, and I I think one thing that both of you were talking about is perspective, and it's important to realize that we are but one perspective. And that goes for if you're with your dog, your family, your coworkers. That's just always understand in life. We have no idea what's going on with another dog, and our dog, like without asking them, co-worker lashes out at you. We have no idea what just happened in their life. So, I mean, if we lash back, then we both needed to have a release of anger at some point. But if we get all like we hold everything in and then lash out to ourselves or to our spouse later, like now we're just right, you start, and and so when you think of it, but our dogs are so honest. No matter what they do in a day, it's real and it's in the present moment and it's honest. And how we take it is just information for us because they're gonna be what they are, but they're so we we call it resilient, maybe. That's one word, that when you know Zoriel get into a fight with Django, and then three seconds later they're best friends again. And you know, they don't hold grudges on one another. He probably looked at her funny, and we, you know, like there's some kind of an exchange, and usually it happens when we're not watching, and and and that, but I think it's this our dogs are so amazing in showing us what our honesty is because they're always going to give us theirs. And I just it's important that we start, and I think that brought a question up for me. Like, you know, I started in pretty standard dog training, and I don't not like it. I I think there's a time and a place for everywhere, and I I think I would tell you I haven't always thought that that when I started learning partnership, that was the way, and you should never like give your dog a command. But the truth is it's a very great way to start having a conversation with your dog when you're doing it and you both are in agreement. And I think sue your body language thing, you can tell when your dog's in agreement. If I were to give Django commands because we did so much with him, he'd probably tell me to F off. I don't want any part of it, and he'll walk out of the room. But Zori just like she loves tricks and she'll get this huge smile on her face. She wants to do it, so we have fun doing it. And I think that's the that's the energy, and you guys can probably speak to that more. But when you start out on this plane, it's very natural to start out doing something by a textbook. So, was there a point in time where intuition became your guide? Like, do you remember a moment, or was there a scenario where like you started to realize it wasn't about fixing, that it was about feeling each other in a way? And for us, it's just an ever-evolving, like, I'm not afraid to change my mind. I think it's a natural part of being humans.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

That's a great question. And I I I don't know if it's directly linked to this, but I will share the the exact ev event that happened that actually really made me realize um a very simple thing where I was asking Charlie to get in the car. And we'd always got in the car to go on our walks. It's been a routine forever, and he started sniffing around and it was like the first reaction is don't waste my time, just get in the damn car, we're going. And he ignored me, pretended he hadn't heard me, and he walked off or whatever. And f it's so easy in that moment to just to blame the dog. It's so easy in that moment to just expect, well, the dog is being gnarly, doesn't want to listen to me, doesn't feel like going on a walk, blah blah blah blah blah, all of those things. And I just decided to stop and listen. And straight away, I just listened, I just observed him. I didn't say stop sniffing, I just observed what he was doing. And every now and then he would sniff and then look up at me, and he would lick his lips and he would then carry on sniffing. And I thought he's trying to communicate something to me. I just don't know what it is. And I just stood really still, took a took a deep breath, and I suddenly intuitively felt he needed help getting into the car. He could not, he didn't have the strength that he used to to be able to jump in the car. And then it suddenly dawned on me, yes, the last few times he's hesitated getting in the car, and he's clipped his his paw, his back paw every time he's jumped in. And now, and suddenly all those pieces came together, boom, boom, boom. He's been telling me, he's been showing me that he's been struggling to get in the car. But I hadn't been listening to that, I hadn't been looking for that and listening to that. And he gave me the time to slow down and stop and to say, I need help getting in the car, I can't do it anymore. And it was such a powerful, oh my God, he's just asking for help. And it's such a different way to the way we would expect that, you know, because we would expect a child to say, I can't get in the car. He can't speak. He how else can he communicate that he needs help getting in the car? And from that day, um, you know, that day I helped him into the car, and then we got a ramp, and he started, you know, using the ramp, and now he uses the ramp to get in and out of the car. And that was all tying in with his, you know, his arthritis and his he had a knee, had a at that time he had a um a bad knee, which further down the line we realized he actually had to have a replacement, um, you know, a um plate put in his knee because of so it was all those things together, but I had to slow down and I had to really start listening to the tiny little details that he was showing me, versus, and this is where we get it so wrong. And I'm not saying it's it's people, I'm not putting blame on people, it's just because we've never really learned to listen with all our senses and to do these these subtle observations, because we are peep we are humans with words, and so we we lack um the training, as it were, our own self-training and how to observe an animal's um communication. And so, and when we do allow our intuition to come in, it's just it's remarkable, I think, because that is how they do communicate so often, and we we are unaware of it, and so we have to slow down and give them the time and the space. Um yeah, so that was my event that really I really realized that communication is more than just verbal commands.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

That's a great story.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

For me, there will be lots of different ones, but I feel it began with when I started learning about zoopharmacognosy, animal remedy knowing. And well, it started a little bit with the behaviour work when I was training with Sheila Harper, and we were learning to slow down and observe the dogs. And I remember watching um a group of people outside that were on my course, and this one lady was trying to walk, really do the whole like I'm gonna slow down and curve and see if I can help the dog settle. And I remember feeling that person's emotions through her performance. So I remember thinking this is great that she's doing all the practical things to help the dog walk more slowly, but I can sense that she's really tense and really stressed, as well as the dog. So there was that a little bit, but actually it was when I was working with horses, which is not my background. I'm not a horse person. I'm one of those that, you know, for me a horse has a bottom and a mane, and I don't have I don't I don't have all of the like the the equine terminology. And I was on a horse soup harmocognosy course, and there was about 15 people that were deep in the horse worlds, you know, highly experienced and and knowledgeable about equines. And the horse, I can't remember what there was going on with the horse, but there was an there was an issue. So the horse was being offered lots of different essential oils, and I was stood at the back because, you know, feeling like I don't really know much about them, so I'm just gonna stand here. And while I was watching, and all of these different people were coming in, offering different oils, and I was just getting like, no, no, no, I don't want I don't want any of that. I need something for my tummy, and so I just kind of meekly piped up, um, can we just try him with some chamomile flowers and some marigolds? And he'd reject his everything till that point, and that's what he just was like, oh, he was just like, I need to take this stuff in internally, and I felt really good to have well, number one to have got that information, and number two to then have felt comfortable to share it, and then I got the confirmation back from the horse. So it I guess it was interesting for me is because I had no preconceptions. I didn't know horses, so I wasn't coming in with all of these like attachments to what should and shouldn't happen. I was I just was purely like a kid watching something and then just saying what popped in my head. So I feel that's when it started to really the the feeling side rather than the the the doing side came through so much more strongly. I guess because when you're working with plants and you're working with the animal leading, you just are naturally then listening better.

SPEAKER_05 39:29

Um but it took a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Still practicing, still working on it. Always. Always. That's the fun bit. That is the fun bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:45

Well about you, Kim. I think man, I'm such a fixer. I mean, I owe I own it. I'm a lot better. I'm recovering, I'm a recovering fixer. Hands up. I can admit it. Uh for me, I believe, you know, uh again, it was um man, almost six years ago. Kind of hard to believe. I started animal communication through because I couldn't do it. And I I would tell you, like my entire life, I was using my intuition, but I would have told you I didn't have one. Oh, that that's for like strange people, you know. That's not, I don't have that. I'm very logical and practical, and either every everything was numbers and things that I could solve. And life isn't solvable. And so when we got our puppy Zori, Django just hated her. And we had lost Django's playmate, had passed on, and we're like, oh, you know, he's seven, and Zam's like almost 13, and she was getting like to not wanting to really, she wasn't a super playful dog. She was more like play police. So we brought Zori home, and Django just hated her. Hated her. I'm and we kept them separated. And I was sitting outside regretting bringing a puppy home, and she came through Aussie Rescue again because I just oh, she just picked us. We picked her, we picked each other, and it was inevitable. But I was crying and I was thinking we were gonna have to re-home her because it's not fair. We're trying to take care of a 10-week-old puppy that needs lots of attention, and Django can't her movement, I think, was too fast. But again, Sue, it's like you said, I couldn't slow down to understand it at that time. I wasn't, I was actually just inexperienced and incapable of doing it. And I didn't know that I was because I would have told you that I knew a lot. I had learned a lot, and I had, I was still working at my old job actually, but I think I had intention to leave. And Zori, like I just saw her as clear as day in my head. Don't worry about me. I'm here to help him. And those words in her face, and like I burst into tears, and I I knew they were gonna be fine. And it instantly made me stop stressing and trying to fix anything. And we just went on about our lives, separating them, and we got into a routine with it, but we stopped hating it.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

We stopped resisting stopped resisting it, stopped blaming.

SPEAKER_06 42:38

Like, why did you like why are we in this why me, right? The victim. Why why can't we just get dogs that are normal? And I mean, the I don't believe in random things. And I would say within a week after I officially left my job, Django broke through the gates. We panicked initially, and then he was just like, I think you, little dog, are pretty cool. And let's be friends. And I and I, you know, like it was a little tense for maybe 10 or 15 minutes, and I dropped some lavender rags on the floor, and within 10 minutes they're sleeping next to each other, and now they're just inseparable. Normally Zori's attached to his neck, and he just loves it. It's just they walk around the house and as like one attachment. And so that was kind of when you start to realize when you take your foot off the gas, things can shift. And it's a hard thing when we're do people. It's a it's not an easy, simple concept. So I think it's just practice, it's a skill, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

But I think you hit the nail on the head, Kim, where you um there's a there's a shift, there's a turning point. There's a shift that I've experienced that I've recognized that you've just had, and I know every single one of us has had it. And I think this is so hard for people, but you get to a point where it it feels exhausting. It's like a turn, like like you say, you will go into why the hell is this dog in my life? I just want him to go away. I just want the pain to go away. I just want the discomfort to go away. I've screwed up, you know, all of those things. And you're gonna come to this rock bottom place where you actually have to make a decision, or you don't even have to. It's just a natural thing that you say, well, that's it. You can either say, I really do need to re-home this dog, and I don't, you know, I don't hold it against people. Sometimes it's just too much in their life, it's too, it is too difficult, and the circumstances just simply do not allow um the space for either the person or the dog to get what they need. So I don't hold that against people if that's you know what they really feel that is necessary. But there it usually comes a point where we have to actually accept what is and say, This sucks. I've got to stop fixing, I've got to stop wishing and hoping that it's ever gonna be different. Because it's that that holds us in this fixing place. Well, let me try this and let me just try that, and let me just keep trying this and let me try something different. It's this never-ending cycle of we've got to get it right, and then things will be okay. And I think it's it's such a powerful thing when you finally say, Okay, this sucks. I don't know what's next, I don't know why we're in each other's lives. It sucks, and I don't like it, but I'm here for the long ride. Yeah. And I'm here to to partner with you and to see where this goes. And to and it's a literally, as you say, you you c things will start to shift almost immediately. I'm not saying everything gets better, I'm not saying that the dog changes, but I am saying that the shift happens, that suddenly things become a lot easier. The pressure is taken off um both the dog and the person, and small shifts start to happen. And for me, a a real obvious thing that we don't seem to realize is just as we mature with age and things change, so does it's the same with our dogs. They mature, they go through phases, they end phases, they start to mature, they start to figure things out on their own, and they start to make the changes from themselves. And one of the biggest things was ever always for me is what I you cannot change another the behavior of another being. It doesn't matter who they are, person or animal. They are the ones that have to change the behavior. We are the ones that support the environment and support the the whatever the conditions in which that behavior is able to change, but the animal or the person is the only one that is ever gonna make the change themselves. And I think as the moment we let go of the pressure that we're gonna fix them is allowing the space where that can start to happen.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

Where they can start their own process of change.

SPEAKER_06 47:25

And I think it starts within us, doesn't it? Like where you just like you said, you just surrender to it. And you know, because for me it it it's always like kind of ground my gears.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

So Charlie.

SPEAKER_06 47:41

Speaking speaking of, speaking of, he's got something to say. You know, it it it's always ground my gears when like people are like you're you're walking your dog on a leash and say you're like doing training. And I I couldn't do it. And so it's like just and all it is is just it's information to lead me to keep like learning about myself. It's you know, just you're holding tension in the leaf. Stop holding it. You have to breathe through it, and they'll respond. And I'm like, you know, uh all this stuff with Django, it's like I'm not stressed out, I'm not, you know, I'm I'm not stressed out. And you know, and you're trying to like walk, and I'm like, it just it's not it, it's not in a textbook, it just isn't in a textbook, it's a relationship, and we have relationships with our animals, and we're blessed to have that. And yeah, I think the less nobody, I mean, who in life like wrote a book that said everything in our life should be like rainbows and roses?

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Oh, how dull.

unknown 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:51

But we like we we just instantly either feel guilty or try to push away when our dog pisses us off. And you know what? Sometimes they do, you know, it just happens, and sometimes we do it to them, and it's just life. And I've always said that like when a re-homing has to happen, I mean, again, it's a lot like my career hops and yours as well. It's like if they didn't have that experience in this home, they wouldn't know what their forever home was meant to be. So it's all like that role of being a home, even if temporary for a dog, is so vital. Vital. And instead of beating yourself up, be grateful for the opportunity to like learn about what doesn't work or what doesn't feel good in your you know what I mean? It's it's like just it's all a gift for us.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Yeah, and you know, once I had learned what I had through through the behavior training, I looked back at some of the relationships that I had with my earlier animals, like a dog that I remember who was also extremely anxious, and two of my horses who were very, very anxious. And I look back at what I know now and I see the relationship again through such totally different eyes. And at first there was guilt about, you know, that never quite kind of worked out the way I wanted it to work out. And um, one of my little dogs actually had to be put down because of her severe, severe anxiety. That was many, many years ago. Um, she was just a total nervous wreck. And what I and and now I feel guilty because I think, well, I what I know now I could have helped her with, but it was part of my journey. It was part of who I am today that I had to experience something like that, you know, to have an animal or have other animals in my life with anxiety. And as you know, you two may know already that I have, you know, one of my my youngest is also um has anxiety, my youngest child has anxiety, not so young anymore, now an adult. But she also has anxiety, and and you know, my animals have helped me through understanding behavior and through observ observations, they've helped me with my own children and my own human relationships and understanding anxiety in a completely different way. So, yeah, it's all it's all part of it, isn't it? There is no right or wrong. There is all these relationships and all parts of the relationships, even the stuff that we think we did wrong or we did badly or whatever, is all part of the journey. It's all part of the understanding. And we can see that from the dog's point of view too, they're also on a journey. They're also on, you know, going through their own experiences and their own life. Yeah, their own life path. And it makes them who they are. All the experiences that they have makes them who they are as adult dogs.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Yeah. And because everything is connected, it's it it it it's a it's an evolution. You were talking about evolution right at the start, and that is how we evolve is you know, we do all right, they don't always have to be extreme events, they can be little things, but it it is like a computer game where you go up the next level and you gather those, gather those skills, and then you go, oh, then you might, you know, die, or you might fall off the balloon, but you get another life, or I mean, I'm not saying that we reincarnate, but that there is there is a growth, but it doesn't just go directly in this perfect this straight line. And and working at Battersea Dogs Home, people uh probably everybody I spoke to said that must have been really hard. And I said, no, it wasn't. It's the best job I ever had. Because, you know, I would see all of it. I would see the people that would bring in a dog because someone had died, or someone had got really sick, or they'd been moved into a property that they couldn't live in anymore, or they had to go to work, or they had had a baby, or and people, yeah, some for some people it would look like it was an easy decision, other people it looked like a really hard decision. But those dogs, it's part of their dog, that dog's journey too. And the and and yeah, that you know, there were times where it didn't work out and the dog wouldn't make it out of the rescue. They'd either stay there or they would be euthanized because of what whatever, you know, that is part that is part of it. But it it still it almost was like a tiny oh like a th thumbprint's not the right word, but it because there were people from all walks of life at Battersea, and there were dogs from all walks of life, it was almost like a tiny version of the world at large. All of these, you know, you've got pure breed dogs, and you've got dogs that come in with limbs missing, or they've been used for fighting, or that have been, you know, from all different backgrounds, and they all come in together and mix and learn, and then they go out into a different home, and you're just part of that dog's journey, and I think that just is it. The pressure, the pressure exists because we think there's a right way, and also I want to speak to that bit that you said about when you've done you're trying all the things, you're trying all the things, and then finally you just get honest that I am pissed off. But I think the bit the really important bit that we took me a long time to get is the dog's not pissing me off, the dog is making me helping me access my internal anger, I and and my anger is there for you know whether I've inherited it or whether whatever it's my perception. So I could look at Darcy and I don't know, say she was ho say it's high winds, she's on one, and we're running through a field, and I trip over a bramble. I could say to Darcy, you're being an absolute arsehole. It's your thanks very much. I'm really annoyed. You've you've made me mad. Like it's you've made me mad. Of course I could do that. And I may have done that, and I'm sure there will be times when I but that's me giving away all my power and saying that her action is created that emotion in me. But someone else could walk her in high winds and trip over a bramble and think it's hilarious and completely like love the adventure, and they do those like challenges called tough mudders, and they just think this is brilliant, I'm loving all of that. But it's the same dog, same experience. So I think that's the that's the bit that is missing or gets messy, is because we blame the dog. We blame the dog for upsetting us, but the only person that can upset us is us, based on what is in our foundation, what our fears are, what our agenda is, all of that.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

You left out part of the story. Which bit you you can trip and fall and blame the dog. Somebody else could trip and fall and think it's hilarious, and I would be the bystander that thought it was funny.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

You need to come and watch me walk my dogs. I trip and fall a lot.

SPEAKER_06 57:20

And you're rubbing off on me because I said the word bramble the other day and Jim made fun of me.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Really? Do you not say brambles in the States?

SPEAKER_06 57:29

Apparently we don't, but now I'm like I've become international.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

You've been hanging out with us too much.

SPEAKER_06 57:36

You said something so important about we're giving our power away when we blame the dog, right? But the other part of that is when we try to control the dog through obedience, we're actually and when we have the expectations, we're taking their power away. So we disempower our dogs as much as we give them ours. It's this exchange that is it's an awareness that if we can start growing an awareness towards it, we'll start to shift. But when we, you know, you think about it, if we're making decisions even for our household, you know, uh human household, you know, you can't eat this, you have to eat that. We're disempowering the person to make choices they're fully capable of making.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

So yeah, Kim, that's a huge one. I think it's a whole new discussion. But I'll just uh I think I'll add on to that because I remember that as well, you know, this control thing. Um and I don't mean it in a bad way, but I I can see it because I can see it. I rec recognized as myself at one stage when people would say, Oh, your dogs are so well behaved, and gee, they listen and look at that recall. It used to, it was really good for my ego. It was a great function because I had done it, I trained them to listen and to follow you know my commands, and it's such an ego thing, it's so easy to go on an ego trip. And like you said, it could be quite fun for the dog sometimes, but a lot of the time, as you say, it's very disempowering and it's very it takes away that their intelligence, really, to think that we have to be in control and tell them what to do because they don't know what to do. I mean, it's ridiculously crazy, and I do liken it to that example of as you said, it's so easy to like when we were kids, you know, and we not everybody, but in my generation, a lot of kids were growing up telling, you know, don't you never question authority, you do what you were told, you toe the line and you follow what your parents say and and all of those things and you never talk back. And so a lot of that is that has been taken, that style of parenting. Um, dog owners have put on their dogs with the same thing. And we see how detrimental now we can see the detriment it has on children's development. Um, and so why should it be any different for our dogs, you know, when they are so controlled and so um suppressed, as it were, and we take away their intelligence and we take away their agency, it has equally detrimental effects on our relationship with them and their well-being.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Yeah. Don't we all like I remember in my forties, and I had a lot of stuff going on in my late 30s, 40s, and I remember somebody, this just popped in my head, remember somebody saying, just go and sit in your car in the middle of nowhere and just yell. Like, just go and sit in the car and just go, rah, and I and I did it, and it was really good fun. But we don't allow our dogs to do that. We don't allow them. We do it in short birthday.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Do you want to have a barking for? Come on, let's go. Just park and go wild and tear around and chase cats and go on and walk.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

I know if I do that with Darcy, like, do you really like come on, let's go, and she really goes into it. And then and it's almost like I I can just it's not that she needs a walk necessarily, I just know that she's needing a real to release, like just energy. And Bex took her out this morning, and we had someone, um uh a local lady take her out for a walk on her own for the first time. So we were already on like tender hooks knowing this was about to happen. So Darcy was like pumped. So when Bex literally just took her down the road, of course, she saw a person and a van went past, and she's like, Darcy's on one today. I'm like, When yeah, because we're like this. But I know I know that she just needs to express that in whatever way, whether it's dig something in the garden or like play rough, or we'll just like do some of whatever, whatever it is. But it I think it's just we like bits, we've got to give them that outlet to express their natural like the podcast is our outlet for expressing who we are and what we want to get out to the world and just something and connecting. That's our outlet. It feels good for us to do this, and they need maybe our dogs need a podcast.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:23

That would be interesting. But whoa whoa, whoa, whoa. Rough.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

But like you said, just an outlet, Rachel. And you know, I I think back now as you were talking, and I remember, you know, those early days with Charlie when he would just like take off and just go. You know, it was probably his way as well of just, you know, just releasing and the freedom and just let you know, just letting it all out and just being a dog and following his instincts is such a was probably such a brilliant relief and for you know for what he needed at that time where we were having such a struggle with each other and with his own anxiety, etc., was such a perfect relief for him. And yet I saw it as a problem because I didn't feel safe, you know, with him just tearing off. But he needed it, you know, he needed it. And yeah, I think it's a huge thing. How do we give our dogs that kind of agency and freedom in the kind of uh living circumstances that most of us have leash laws and you know, all these things and not enough spaces for dogs to be dogs and to express the the way that they that is innately natural for them?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

It's it's all we're all we're all gonna move to Kim's with a bit of land they could just go out and mud. Well, this is called muddying.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:51

Yeah, it's still still too frozen so soon. Soon. So what essential oils do we have with us today?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

I'm gonna use a fancy name. Uh-oh. Meleluca. Oh nice.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:10

I was expecting Bella Piranus.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Tea tree. Good old teacher.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

Oh, I love it. Love it. I need glasses. Well, I know what it is, but I'm trying to be clever now. Um and read the Latin. Um Nicotania planifolia.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

Oh, I know. That's um tobacco.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:37

Oh. Little pinch between your cheek and gum. That would be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Smells fruity. Which is funny, isn't it? Fruity.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:51

I I love tobacco actually. Yeah. Like not the the aromatic.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

For those of you who can't see this podcast. The tobacco the tobacco um leaf has gone up in Rachel's nose.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:14

Just the right one. Just up the right nostrils. I love to sit in my pants with tobacco.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

On your veranda. Yes. Brambles all around. Stereotypes going, should we? Brambles.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:37

I didn't think it was a strange word. I also I also broke a pair of like dress shoes, like little like for whatever heels I wear. And I'm like, oh, I need to take it. I need to take it to a cobbler. Take it to a cobbler. I thought Jim was gonna bust the gut. He's like a cobbler.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

You've just jumped timelines to the 18th lecture. That's what I was thinking. What have you got, Kim?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:13

I have Raven Sarah. Raven Sarah. I love it. It's very offering me a lot of clarity today.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

I've got rosemary to my left. I am surrounded. Beautiful. I did order a rosemary.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:36

I did order some rosemary for the garden this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Oh, goody.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:40

Gotta start growing it in the basement and then we'll see how big we can get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

Cool. I love that you grow it in the basement first.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:48

Yeah. It's too cold here right now to put seeds out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Right, fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:53

About middle May. That's when we can start getting outside.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

All right, lame lovely ladies. Lovely ladies. We're gonna call it a a sh we're gonna call it a wrap. Yes. Um been wonderful, beautiful conversations as always. Thank you for being here. Thank you for always changing me. As you as Kim always says, we come here into these sessions as one person, we leave as another, because whatever has been shared has um positively changed us in some way.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:33

In some way. So thank you for that. What else, ladies?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:39

Last word Ask your dog who they want to be today.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:43

I like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:46

I'm gonna do that. But I think if you like what you hear, subscribe and ask us a question.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

Yeah, we'd love we'd love some more questions. Yeah. Keep them rolling in.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:59

And thanks, Carol. It's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

Yeah, thank you, Carol. It's a really good question.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:04

Really good. Gave us an entire podcast. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

All right, let's wrap, ladies. Thank you. See you next week. Bye. Bye bye.